Jane choices in the epilogue and Jane in general

[thorondraco]

trizza's horns are exactly the same as feferi's horns because she was a pisces in the concept stage and they never bothered to change them because it says right there in the comic that the whole thing about signs and ancestors is just a superstition and has nothing to do with a troll's real genetics. i don't think this line of debate is really conducive to deciding whether jane is racist or not though

And they altered the angle of her hornsa bit to make up for it, and kinda cheated by making a fuschia sign that borrows those specific parts from the pisces sign.

And no not really but its connected to troll biology anyway. There is a lot we don't know about how troll's function is a point to it.

[BrobyDDark]

Petition to renams thread to Janecourse

[ContemplativeSkeptic]

To begin with, I just wanted to point out that Jane has been a vessel for the writers' opinions on corporate imperialism since her very introduction; that's seen in the way Jane considers being the only playtester of an important video game, being subjected to multiple assassination threats and a major rebranding of a baked goods company she is the heiress of for no good reason to be perfectly normal ocurrences.

That said, I've seen no one mention in this debate that it's because of Jane that Earth C is not a post scarcity world since she convinced the rest of the kids to restrict access to alchemy in order to build up a baked goods empire yet again, which is an asshole move without even getting into her current actions in the epilogues.
Now, her troll related politics and their motivations would make sense if the human kingdom wasn't holding both trolls and carapacians hostages by controlling the means of (re)production (btw, if that was done on purpose I very much approve of the wordplay and commentary on capitalism/communism as capable of the same evils), if there was any indication of what the number of trolls born would be before the mothergrub even started laying eggs (consider that this new civilization would make it voluntary to deliver genetic material so the numbers I've seen going around are not all that likely to be accurate), if the humans actually needed the ectobiology labs to reproduce and if the consort kingdom didn't already offset the population of the other kingdoms by a pretty big margin and hadn't had their rights reduced in the name of "equal" representation (basically their votes are counted as percentages instead of as complete individuals).

Maybe she didn't start as a totalitarian tyrant and her intentions were initially harmless while still being naively selfish but her shitty attempt at doing business, her shittier one at being a politician, the blasé reactions of her friends to her increasingly terrible decisions and her childhood grooming at the hands of the Condesce are pretty much a recipe for disaster in both timelines

[JakeMorph]

Now, her troll related politics and their motivations would make sense if the human kingdom wasn't holding both trolls and carapacians hostages by controlling the means of (re)production (btw, if that was done on purpose I very much approve of the wordplay and commentary on capitalism/communism as capable of the same evils)

where does the communism part come in..? the means of production are controlled under capitalism (which is clearly what Jane practices) as well, the difference is just in who controls them

[ContemplativeSkeptic]

Now, her troll related politics and their motivations would make sense if the human kingdom wasn't holding both trolls and carapacians hostages by controlling the means of (re)production (btw, if that was done on purpose I very much approve of the wordplay and commentary on capitalism/communism as capable of the same evils)

where does the communism part come in..? the means of production are controlled under capitalism (which is clearly what Jane practices) as well, the difference is just in who controls them

I don't see how that throw away comment is important to the debate at hand and I barely remember where that idea came from but I saw an unintended pun and wondered if the writers had done it on purpose. Yeah, the means of production are controlled by the government in communism and by private parties in capitalism, the gods are also kings and queens so they pretty much have the authority to be the government, if you add Jane's attempted corporatocracy she might as well count as both the government (the only one who's interested in ruling the kingdoms among the gods) and The private party

[xeno]

(btw, if that was done on purpose I very much approve of the wordplay and commentary on capitalism/communism as capable of the same evils)

I don't see how communism is at all relevant. Jane is not a communist, and communism isn't even brought up at all in the epilogues, from what I remember.

[ContemplativeSkeptic]

Seems like we agree, which is why I find myself baffled seeing the two of you fixating on a half-baked in parenthesis comment about a pun

[xeno]

We're fixating on it because it was so out of place. There was no commentary about communism as far as I know, and I have no clue how you erached the conclusion that there was.

[JakeMorph]

i wouldn't call it fixating lol i just agreed w the rest of what you had to say so that was all i rly had to comment on

[xeno]

I will say I hadn't really thought of the fact that Jane was essentially creating artificial scarcity, and also never realized she was limiting people's usage of alchemy. I don't really have anything else to say about your post though, ignoring the mention of communism.

[Joyfulldreams]

This whole thread makes me feel icky because it seems to be entirely missing the point that Jane in the epilogues could literally not have been more clearly meant as a nearly direct analog for white supremacy, fascism, and eugenics?? And we're just sort of nonchalantly talking about the fact that Jane was right, like. I love Jane too but there is literally no way in hell I'm going to entertain for one second that anything she did in candy wasn't just straight-up bigotry. Because...that's what it was?????

I am extremely disturbed by some of the things I've read in this thread and how way too much of it borders on defending white supremacist ideology under the guise of arguing over a fictional comic. No, Homestuck is not Literally Real but I am one of the people who despises the epilogues the most out of everyone and even I know half the goddamn point of the epilogues was to directly comment on exactly these issues. Jane is about as direct an analogue for a white supremacist genocidal dictator as you can get. Trying to only argue on these points as if the real-world analogue isn't relevant is tone deaf to the point of being harmfully disingenuous and has me narrowing my eyes in suspicion.

In fact I'm a little appalled that a mod hasn't been in here yet to give warnings to people even ironically going "Jane Crocker was right" as if that isn't dangerously close to sounding like alt-right dog whistling. I'm not accusing anyone of secretly being a Nazi, I'm just trying to warn people about the fact that this entire thing sounds Bad and to maybe actually watch what you're really arguing over, please.

[Deageon]

In fact I'm a little appalled that a mod hasn't been in here yet to give warnings to people even ironically going "Jane Crocker was right" as if that isn't dangerously close to sounding like alt-right dog whistling. I'm not accusing anyone of secretly being a Nazi, I'm just trying to warn people about the fact that this entire thing sounds Bad and to maybe actually watch what you're really arguing over, please.

I. Bruh.
Just because there might be /theoretical/ dogwhistling to the alt right cringe bitch types doesn't mean the moderators have to start randomly warning people about it. It's just memes, about a fake political discussion about Homestuck. Fucking Homestuck. Im Also fairly sure that there's no secret alt right types at all adjacent to this forum or its community. Also, being "appalled" is your opinion and feelings, maybe a bit strong and...accusing of a word to use?

[JakeMorph]

you are VERY sorely mistaken if you really think you can state in confidence that there's nobody with right-wing beliefs at all adjacent to this community.

[Sahxyel]

you are VERY sorely mistaken if you really think you can state in confidence that there's nobody with right-wing beliefs at all adjacent to this community.

Right wing =/= alt-right and it's incredibly insulting to conflate the two.

That said, this all seems really hyperbolic? Trolls are not a 1-1 replacement for racial current political issues though they do conspicuously mirror the circumstances of it.

[JakeMorph]

I'm sorry who exactly is insulted by that conflation

[BrobyDDark]

I'm sorry who exactly is insulted by that conflation

Maybe people who associate with the right-wing, but aren't members of, nor do they like the alt-right.

Just like those who associate with the left-wing may not like being associated communities that voice overtly-extreme views and are overall detrimental to progress themselves.

[JakeMorph]

i suppose it's a good thing I don't mind coming across as insulting to rightists, then

as if it even matters: you don't have to be an alt-rightist to advocate against the mingling or "overpopulation" of races, it's basically a core tenet of traditional American conservativism

[Sahxyel]

i suppose it's a good thing I don't mind coming across as insulting to rightists, then

as if it even matters: you don't have to be an alt-rightist to advocate against the mixing of races, it's basically a core tenet of traditional American conservativism

This feels like this isn't the topic to actually get into this argument so I'm ducking out with a last 'stop making overgeneralizations because that's bad and wrong', thank you.

[BrobyDDark]

i suppose it's a good thing I don't mind coming across as insulting to rightists, then

as if it even matters: you don't have to be an alt-rightist to advocate against the mingling or "overpopulation" of races, it's basically a core tenet of traditional American conservativism

Treat other fellow humans with respect, please, regardless of political affiliation. It's the least both parties could do to minimize separation in the world.

[Joyfulldreams]

I didn't want to start like a whole THING, though I guess that was a bit short-sighted of me.

1. Alt-right dogwhistles are literally always memes, and literally always hide behind being "just a joke", so your insistence on that point does not exactly fill me with confidence.
2. A 'fake' political discussion that is in many ways a direct analogue to the very, very real actual real-life political reality of many people, and I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, but it ought to be with the gravity that sort of thing requires.
3. The idea that it being "just homestuck" means you should somehow take discussion of the thing less seriously kinda feels like it falls flat to me, but that's just me.

Basically. Please just realize that when people say things like "actually it feels like Jane was being rational when she thought it made sense to control the means of reproduction for an entire race of people, nobody gave her a good ALTERNATIVE" as if reproductive control is not a thing that has happened to many races of real life people as an integral part of genocide and overall oppression. Or stuff like "it would be bad if an entire culture was just erased via being overrun by the population of this other race" as if that isn't the exact same thing the alt-right cite when they decry immigrants somehow wiping out the White Race via reproduction and population growth....it does not sound, from everyone's perspective, like we are only talking about the realm of fiction.

I just wanted to IDK put the stuff being talked about in this thread into perspective. It isn't just jokey jokey comic fake politics. In this discussion you are touching on real life stuff, that has happened and IS HAPPENING to real life people. If we're talking about how in-character any of this stuff is for Jane, as a fictional character from homestuck, that's a different thing. If we're talking about magic powers characters have and theorizing on the specific and societal repercussions of alien troll reproduction, that's a different thing. But when it comes to discussing the ideaological reasons behind the formation of even a fictional dictatorship and genocide, it is a weighty real-life topic that ought not be treated quite as flippantly.