Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Discuss post-canon works such as the Homestuck Epilogues, Pesterquest, or Homestuck 2 here!

Moderator: calamityCons

Post Reply
thorondraco
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by thorondraco » Tue May 26, 2020 12:21 am

I just had the thought not long ago. In candy, in this locked timeline, there are probably no alterante timelines at all.
What cause an alternate timeline in homestuck is when a timeline does not mesh with the alpha timeline. A character goes left when they had to go right. But in Candy that dosen't seem to apply because there isn't a 'story' going on, its not part of the alpha. There isn't really a specific goal that is needed to compelte the loop here, it is what they are doing.
It does seem like someone is manipulating things now but i doubt it would be the same.

The implications include t hat anyone born After the split doesn't ahve any alterante selves. And who knows what that means in paradox space itself. Harry, Yiffy, and Tavros wouldn't have any alternate selves out there, guys who went off script and bit it as punishment.
Vrissy though i feel is the exception. Not only is she the only troll here, but more so she was likely gestating in her egg BEFORE the split. Meaning there is a baby Vrissy back on Meat earth c by now.
We don't know the gestation period of troll eggs but i wager its longer than a coupla months. Course its possible they only gestate for so long too. That is a bit of information needed.

User avatar
Generalrabogolfo
Posts: 1179
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:08 pm
Location: Caliborn's Tummy
Pronouns: El, el rabo
Classpect: bard of mind
Moon: Derse

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by Generalrabogolfo » Tue May 26, 2020 3:58 am

you gotta understand what is the alpha timeline first, and why is it as important as it is. imo, the alpha timeline only existed because LE needed to exist, and to bring him to existence everything should follow am strict order, up to Game Over.
for example, if john ripped both arms from the harlequin instead of just one, jack wouldn't have been able to make such destruction, which would have made it impossible to interfere with the trolls session, which woukd have result in rose not creating the green sun, which would have resulted in the betas not scratching, which would have resulted in the code not launching, etc etc etc.
so, in my opinion, the reason why the concept of doomed timelines is dropped at the end is because LE's loop is already completed. Earth C exists and, with time, it'll be abandoned amd used as the home world of caliborn and calliope.
:rosecool:

thorondraco
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by thorondraco » Tue May 26, 2020 2:38 pm

Generalrabogolfo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:58 am
you gotta understand what is the alpha timeline first, and why is it as important as it is. imo, the alpha timeline only existed because LE needed to exist, and to bring him to existence everything should follow am strict order, up to Game Over.
for example, if john ripped both arms from the harlequin instead of just one, jack wouldn't have been able to make such destruction, which would have made it impossible to interfere with the trolls session, which woukd have result in rose not creating the green sun, which would have resulted in the betas not scratching, which would have resulted in the code not launching, etc etc etc.
so, in my opinion, the reason why the concept of doomed timelines is dropped at the end is because LE's loop is already completed. Earth C exists and, with time, it'll be abandoned amd used as the home world of caliborn and calliope.
Doomed timlines weren't dropped they just aren't 'worth showing' there. Its obvious that doomed timelines were still happening after retcon. And likely doomed timelines are still happening.
We don't know how restrictive the concept of the timelines are to begin so that leaves to question how many doomed timelines end up generated. Do they have the freedom to do things so long as they complete the major objectives or is something as simple as them eating a ham sandwich when they were supposed to eat gushers enough? The story vs free wil land all that jazz. So candy isn't dividing into a buncha whatifs because it isn't strict and linear.

User avatar
Generalrabogolfo
Posts: 1179
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:08 pm
Location: Caliborn's Tummy
Pronouns: El, el rabo
Classpect: bard of mind
Moon: Derse

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by Generalrabogolfo » Tue May 26, 2020 3:34 pm

thorondraco wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 2:38 pm
dude did you even read my explanation about the doomed timelines
dude did you even read my explanation about the doomed timelines
:rosecool:

User avatar
foreverFlummoxed
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:18 am
Location: Lurking in the basement I don't have
Pronouns: Call me w/e, idgaf
Classpect: Rogue of Light
Moon: Prospit
Contact:

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by foreverFlummoxed » Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm

Generalrabogolfo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:34 pm
dude did you even read my explanation about the doomed timelines
Doomed timelines and the Alpha timeline are entirely based on the will of Paradox Space/"The story/author" but Lord English used his power as the Lord of Time to control the alpha timeline to his will, meaning that if he's dead, the timeline now follows the will of Paradox Space instead of him. Also LE literally figuratively killed the author.
FF: Personally, I think my skills are near-mediocre at best. that's really all there is to say on the matter.

FF: I couldn't figure out how to get it in the profile field so here's my YouTube channel

thorondraco
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by thorondraco » Tue May 26, 2020 4:56 pm

foreverFlummoxed wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:48 pm
Generalrabogolfo wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 3:34 pm
dude did you even read my explanation about the doomed timelines
Doomed timelines and the Alpha timeline are entirely based on the will of Paradox Space/"The story/author" but Lord English used his power as the Lord of Time to control the alpha timeline to his will, meaning that if he's dead, the timeline now follows the will of Paradox Space instead of him. Also LE literally figuratively killed the author.
Basically anything that doesn't go along some kind of script ends up being a doomed timeline. It kinda feels artificial in a way, cause by the very fact things can go awry means free will is real in paradox space, but controlled via this goddamn timeloop and narrative nonsense.

Actually maybe that is why we have this narrative control ultimate self stuff going on now. Without lord english and hussie, the ability to control the narrative can now be done by 'lesser actors'. Or at least its allowing the peeps who somehow survived their ultimate self to take over and grow stronger. Dirk's abilities just keep growing. Basically lord egnlish and hussie were blocking anyone else from taking over.
It seems like the director has some power but she had to struggle to drive Dirk off in pesterquest. she isn't as powerful a Hussie.

User avatar
Consolo
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:32 pm

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by Consolo » Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:24 am

Without a Lord of Time to impose a single alpha timeline, I think that the Candy and Meat universes are just picking one timeline and rolling with it, for lack of better phrasing/
what if there were two guys on the moon and one killed another with a rock would that be fucked up or what

User avatar
mightyhydrator
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:10 am
Pronouns: he/him
Moon: Prospit

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by mightyhydrator » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:21 am

Y'all forgetting that Candy is in and of itself a doomed timeline, kept stable (read: in existence) by Calliope's black hole. It's possible doomed timelines can lead to further deviations, but like, from a storytelling standpoint that hardly matters (unless you wanna go freaky).

Also, doomed timelines are only created upon deviations from timeloops. Lord English didn't really use his Time powers to establish most of Homestuck's timeloops (there are some key points you can suggest, but everything else is either someone else doing something for him or everything just conveniently aligning). foreverFlummoxed is right in this way: after LE, further alpha timelines simply do not work to benefit a specific individual, but rather to propagate paradox space and themselves. Any random schmuck could ectobiologize themself and their friends and send them back in time REGARDLESS of LE.

Edit: I realize I wasn't clear about something to do with LE: his powers and circumstances let him take advantage of timeloops, he doesn't FORCE the alpha timeline to bend to his will, it is ALREADY like that before he gets his grubby green claws on it.

thorondraco
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by thorondraco » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:59 pm

mightyhydrator wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:21 am
Y'all forgetting that Candy is in and of itself a doomed timeline, kept stable (read: in existence) by Calliope's black hole. It's possible doomed timelines can lead to further deviations, but like, from a storytelling standpoint that hardly matters (unless you wanna go freaky).

Also, doomed timelines are only created upon deviations from timeloops. Lord English didn't really use his Time powers to establish most of Homestuck's timeloops (there are some key points you can suggest, but everything else is either someone else doing something for him or everything just conveniently aligning). foreverFlummoxed is right in this way: after LE, further alpha timelines simply do not work to benefit a specific individual, but rather to propagate paradox space and themselves. Any random schmuck could ectobiologize themself and their friends and send them back in time REGARDLESS of LE.

Edit: I realize I wasn't clear about something to do with LE: his powers and circumstances let him take advantage of timeloops, he doesn't FORCE the alpha timeline to bend to his will, it is ALREADY like that before he gets his grubby green claws on it.
There is a few reasons to doubt that. Mainly because of what lord english did. Killed hussie. Considering that, who knows what exactly went on after that happened. Like i said before, the dark spots of canon are highly malleable.

But yea, that is the problem. Candy isn't a 'doomed timeline'. Basically its a paradox, a real one. Its why Calliope said the timeline was dangerous. A true doomed timeline would just dissolve. Candy won't because of john making it 'canon'. Despite how much of a contradiction it is.

Think of it in a story sense. The main character chooses to ignore the big bad and settle down, letting the big bad reign free. Aka, shit gets wrecked. This is the same thing but the threat is less shit gets wrecked by big bad and more the timeloop isn't finished/repaired. And worse, it split the timeline so now we have two timelines that are supposed to be the 'canon timeline'.

User avatar
mightyhydrator
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:10 am
Pronouns: he/him
Moon: Prospit

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by mightyhydrator » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:25 am

thorondraco wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:59 pm
But yea, that is the problem. Candy isn't a 'doomed timeline'. Basically its a paradox, a real one. Its why Calliope said the timeline was dangerous. A true doomed timeline would just dissolve. Candy won't because of john making it 'canon'. Despite how much of a contradiction it is.
JADE: it was created by a choice that made it possible for that horizon to expand infinitely, to consume infinitely.
JADE: if this world were capable of anything either essential, relevant, or true in some stable combination, then it would perpetuate a corrosive paradox.
JADE: as such, insulation from what is out there, and the inescapable well it rests in, is what protects all it holds inside.
JADE: and since i am the embodiment of the black hole in which it rests,
JADE: i am the one protecting this world.


It's really hard to properly pick this conversation apart (shocker, lol), but the gist of this bit seems like the reason Calliope does what she does is to protect the timeline within from the "canonical horrors" without, to keep it perpetual despite the contradiction that would otherwise ruin Candy. ("corrosive paradox" in relation to itself, not the rest of P.Space)

So yeah, Candy is a doomed timeline. It is in contradiction with the alpha ('canonical') timeline, and thus would normally end up being erased. There's nothing that TRULY makes Candy different from any other doomed timeline (besides Calliope), and since the deviation is that John didn't time travel (doesn't apply his retcon powers), then it's not really "made canon" by his powers, is it?

thorondraco
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by thorondraco » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:07 pm

mightyhydrator wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:25 am
thorondraco wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:59 pm
But yea, that is the problem. Candy isn't a 'doomed timeline'. Basically its a paradox, a real one. Its why Calliope said the timeline was dangerous. A true doomed timeline would just dissolve. Candy won't because of john making it 'canon'. Despite how much of a contradiction it is.
JADE: it was created by a choice that made it possible for that horizon to expand infinitely, to consume infinitely.
JADE: if this world were capable of anything either essential, relevant, or true in some stable combination, then it would perpetuate a corrosive paradox.
JADE: as such, insulation from what is out there, and the inescapable well it rests in, is what protects all it holds inside.
JADE: and since i am the embodiment of the black hole in which it rests,
JADE: i am the one protecting this world.


It's really hard to properly pick this conversation apart (shocker, lol), but the gist of this bit seems like the reason Calliope does what she does is to protect the timeline within from the "canonical horrors" without, to keep it perpetual despite the contradiction that would otherwise ruin Candy. ("corrosive paradox" in relation to itself, not the rest of P.Space)

So yeah, Candy is a doomed timeline. It is in contradiction with the alpha ('canonical') timeline, and thus would normally end up being erased. There's nothing that TRULY makes Candy different from any other doomed timeline (besides Calliope), and since the deviation is that John didn't time travel (doesn't apply his retcon powers), then it's not really "made canon" by his powers, is it?
It may be all true, if we can rely on Calliope's narration.

But here is the thing. Something she only knows and probably no one else, even the one responsible.

She isn't the person who placed the timeline into the black hole. That was John. We don't know how he did it, how he knew to do it, and why it happened this way, but when John split the timeline, it somehow was transported into
In fact she has stated before that the only reason she is able to operate IS thanks to the timeline. Gives her something to focus on and keep cognitive.

The truth is, its because of John that Calliope is even conscious right now.

And she also states that if it was capable of creating a 'corrosive paradox' if it wasn't insulated inside of the black hole, much like the pesterquest timeline was literally doing. She isn't saying its a doomed timeline, she is more or less explaining why timelines are doomed and their danger.

Ultimately the question is, if Calliope is a reliable narrator. which would be really screwy if dirk is the one being more straight with us and calliope is the one telling boldface lies.

User avatar
foreverFlummoxed
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:18 am
Location: Lurking in the basement I don't have
Pronouns: Call me w/e, idgaf
Classpect: Rogue of Light
Moon: Prospit
Contact:

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by foreverFlummoxed » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:51 pm

thorondraco wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:07 pm
mightyhydrator wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:25 am
thorondraco wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:59 pm
>snip
>lots of words
>snippety snap
It seems that the state of the Candy timeline came from a combination of john's narrative breaking powers growing too much and, with no other explanation suitable, the biggest impact of a butterfly effect possible.

A more in depth explanation without referring to PQ: John's narrative teleport powers got so intense that he was able to make a small decision of "what do I eat at this picnic" to butterfly effect the narrative so hard it ruptured in two and the powers managed to make them both "viable" in the eyes of paradox space/the narrative/whatever the fuck.

A more in depth explanation while referring to Pesterquest (the best explanation): similar to Pesterquest, John unknowingly made a decision that greatly impacted the fabric of reality resulting in two timelines that may or may not be the where the narrative wants to go. In Peserquest MSPAReader makes the decision to throw john's mail into the sewer, which results in Reader meeting the other beta kids, the beta trolls, and the alpha kids somehow (note that Reader also had access to the same powers as John at this point) Eventually after meeting every one Reader is noticed by Ult!Dirk (who also is wary of the Candy timeline) and the Director (semi-unknown player at this time, possibly trapped in-story Hussie from control of the narrative, not actually literal) After evading those two, Reader uses the narrative powers to make the Pesterquest events into a Locked Timeline and newly obtained green sun powers(?) to become the First Guardian of the timeline (green sun powers is important but I'll get to that, either way Reader is the First guardian green sun destroyed notwithstanding) this means that the timeline cannot be stopped/erased by the force that deletes doomed timelines and protects it from major players such as Ult!Dirk and The Director from using whatever "narrative power" they have to harm the PQ timeline.
This is almost exactly what is happening/has happened with Candy, John (with narrative changing powers same as Reader) made a small choice between what to eat, which resulted in two different directions for the story (Readers decision resulted in Homestuck happens normally and Pesterquest happening) Eventually Ult!Dirk discovers Candy timeline and is wary of it (him noticing before or after the next point occurs is unclear to me) The Director's opinions of Candy have not been revealed as of this date. Finally alt!Calliope possesses Jade and is now with access to a previous First Guardian (Bec & Jade's merging) therefore: John locked the Timeline (possibly by accident) and alt!Calliope became the First Guardian of Candy through Jade, actively protecting it from threats such as Ult!Dirk (and The Director?) meaning that Candy still stands and Pesterquest explains why by having an almost identical situation happen.
FF: Personally, I think my skills are near-mediocre at best. that's really all there is to say on the matter.

FF: I couldn't figure out how to get it in the profile field so here's my YouTube channel

thorondraco
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Re: Are there no doomed timelines in Candy?

Post by thorondraco » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:52 pm

foreverFlummoxed wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:51 pm
thorondraco wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:07 pm
mightyhydrator wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:25 am

>lots of words
>snippety snap
It seems that the state of the Candy timeline came from a combination of john's narrative breaking powers growing too much and, with no other explanation suitable, the biggest impact of a butterfly effect possible.

A more in depth explanation without referring to PQ: John's narrative teleport powers got so intense that he was able to make a small decision of "what do I eat at this picnic" to butterfly effect the narrative so hard it ruptured in two and the powers managed to make them both "viable" in the eyes of paradox space/the narrative/whatever the fuck.

A more in depth explanation while referring to Pesterquest (the best explanation): similar to Pesterquest, John unknowingly made a decision that greatly impacted the fabric of reality resulting in two timelines that may or may not be the where the narrative wants to go. In Peserquest MSPAReader makes the decision to throw john's mail into the sewer, which results in Reader meeting the other beta kids, the beta trolls, and the alpha kids somehow (note that Reader also had access to the same powers as John at this point) Eventually after meeting every one Reader is noticed by Ult!Dirk (who also is wary of the Candy timeline) and the Director (semi-unknown player at this time, possibly trapped in-story Hussie from control of the narrative, not actually literal) After evading those two, Reader uses the narrative powers to make the Pesterquest events into a Locked Timeline and newly obtained green sun powers(?) to become the First Guardian of the timeline (green sun powers is important but I'll get to that, either way Reader is the First guardian green sun destroyed notwithstanding) this means that the timeline cannot be stopped/erased by the force that deletes doomed timelines and protects it from major players such as Ult!Dirk and The Director from using whatever "narrative power" they have to harm the PQ timeline.
This is almost exactly what is happening/has happened with Candy, John (with narrative changing powers same as Reader) made a small choice between what to eat, which resulted in two different directions for the story (Readers decision resulted in Homestuck happens normally and Pesterquest happening) Eventually Ult!Dirk discovers Candy timeline and is wary of it (him noticing before or after the next point occurs is unclear to me) The Director's opinions of Candy have not been revealed as of this date. Finally alt!Calliope possesses Jade and is now with access to a previous First Guardian (Bec & Jade's merging) therefore: John locked the Timeline (possibly by accident) and alt!Calliope became the First Guardian of Candy through Jade, actively protecting it from threats such as Ult!Dirk (and The Director?) meaning that Candy still stands and Pesterquest explains why by having an almost identical situation happen.
I honetly think that pesterquest was kinda used to explain what the Candy timeline is. A locked timeline, and the lock allows the timeline to exist without being erased by paradox space or, worse, creating a paradox.
But it has a cost. The timelines are unstable so things get confused and disorganized. Its possible candy has it worse because fo the ghosts falling into it. Cause they aren't following the original story basically and aren't bound by their rules. I don't know if Calliope IS keeping candy alive like she claims but its clear its reality is not the most stable.

I kinda made a theory a few weeks ago that i think people... misinterpreted the intent of it >_>. The unstable timelines could allow someone to peak in and, if they ahve the power to influence it, do things that make no sense. Yiffany's very existence for example.
I literally think that while Candy jade has penor, Meat Jade is not penor. Cause the penor was ONLY brought up in Candy. And seemingly, for the reason of creating another Crockbert/Strilonde spawn.

Fuck far as we know Vrissy is another creation of this timeline. Though i would imagine she could also be on meat's earth c right now. Depends on how long those eggs take to hatch.

Post Reply