Classpect discussion

[aspiringWatcher]

I've found that based on most quizzes and my own personal research I believe I would be a Knight of Rage.
What kind of powers do y'all think knights of rage would have?

The Aspect of Rage primarily concerns itself with casting doubt on what already is, making one question why do they hold onto beliefs they have.

I like comparing it to "THIS IS STUPID": a sufficiently advanced Rage player can invoke "THIS IS STUPID" as they see fit, raining common sense and "no CGI majyyk for you" on their enemies. It's more dangerous than it seems.

I've written a nice thread on what I think about Knight/Page pair here.

To sum it up:

You're team's designated common sense brain cell holder and your powers will be related to having common sense brain cells do the things brain cells do.

[RoyalFiddle]

Been doing some thinking on how classpects manifest and how I am as a person and I really do think Mage of Time fits. I wonder how good a classpect that is!

[Leddy]

Mine is in my bio, I've been super interested in Classpect Headcanons about it, but I'm no good at these things.

[arachnidsGrip]

I'm a Dersite Bard of Void as of a day or two ago, after being a Dersite Page of Light for a couple of months.

From my understanding, and take this all with a grain of salt because I don't really understand Bards or Void, a Bard of Void is a passive destroyer of Void. One who corrodes what Void envelopes. They ghost Light in the beginning of their story, which means that they want attention, they want relevance, they DO NOT like being cast aside. They are the types to make sure others are aware of them. They don't want to be considered irrelevant, and that ties into the big event in the middle of their story, where they lose their desire to be important. They come into their true aspect, and come to embrace it. For a Bard of Void, that means probably accepting that they aren't the center. That they don't NEED attention, maybe? I'm not sure, I've only been a Bard of Void for a day and a half!

[PhosofRadiance]

I've found that based on most quizzes and my own personal research I believe I would be a Knight of Rage.
What kind of powers do y'all think knights of rage would have?

The Aspect of Rage primarily concerns itself with casting doubt on what already is, making one question why do they hold onto beliefs they have.

I like comparing it to "THIS IS STUPID": a sufficiently advanced Rage player can invoke "THIS IS STUPID" as they see fit, raining common sense and "no CGI majyyk for you" on their enemies. It's more dangerous than it seems.

I've written a nice thread on what I think about Knight/Page pair here.

To sum it up:

You're team's designated common sense brain cell holder and your powers will be related to having common sense brain cells do the things brain cells do.

How exactly does Rage cast doubt? There isn't any explicit or implicit evidence presented in and out of comic.

[ANCIENT_HOLIDAY]

-

[Sahxyel]

Mage of Time. For a real easy explanation, watch Groundhog Day.

Oh my god I'm so sorry, I can't imagine a worse Hell than a Groundhog Day scenario.

[ANCIENT_HOLIDAY]

-

[RoyalFiddle]

Gods help me and my magey hellscpae

[egg]

I figure that, in order to add some variety to all the self-classpecting, I might as well add some of the sources that I frequently read back in the day, and my personal opinions on them. These were THE DEAL and were pretty much required reading for anyone fancying themselves up a Pro-Theorist (which was a job consisting of nothing but answering really stupid asks on Tumblr and wondering if you should just end it all or keep waiting for that one person who actually gets it)

I might as well start with one of the old classics, which is bladekindEyewear. This guy, if you don't know about him, was a huge deal back in the day. He set most of Classpect theory in stone, but also had a few theories that were heavily disputed, the most (in)famous of which was his inversion theory, which got so hot that Rachel decided to debate the guy on it on Reddit. Despite that, though, and despite what you might think of him, I actually believe that a lot of his other theories still hold up today, and are perfect for understanding how Classpect works in general - few theorists have deviated on a major level from what he has uncovered, and many of those who did, didn't survive for long. I'd like to point out some of what I believe to be his best posts, Homestuck and the Calling of a Hero, and The Answer to the Ultimate Riddle. I don't pull back to these often when talking to my friends, but they're so great and so pertinent to the way I interpret Classpect that I generally make any one I seek to educate read them first if they haven't yet.
As for some of the other theories he has written that I do reference often, I find myself coming back to Breath, Blood and the Flow of Reality, which is again amazing and a great analysis of John's character and how each Aspect is interwoven and contrasting with its opposite in interesting ways, and A Kid in King Arthur's Court, which has the interpretation of Pages that I agree the most with, and that has short descriptors for each class that are so accurate that I wish I could quote them more often. There's also InfinityWhale's masterpost, which was not written by BKEW, but rather InfinityWhale, another theorist who's spoken to BKEW a lot and shares a lot of his views. It's a very useful post, and what I referred back to the most when I self-classpected. Though now, I don't find myself fully agreeing with it in all points.

Besides BKEW, there's a few other theorists I like to read, and that I occasionally reference, though less so. There's Dahni, who has provided their own interpretations of every single Classpect combination in their blog, the only major theorist I know of that has managed to pull this off. That being said, while their descriptions were useful to me back in the day, I find myself agreeing with them less and less as time passes. I find that Dahni is excellent, but only if paired with other theorists - relying on just Dahni may lead to a few critical misinterpretations, like the idea that Bards have to, or worse, are doomed to, all experience a particularly emotionally traumatizing experience as a challenge or in order to grow as a person, as that's not really a nice thing to read by anyone, and may hinder the writing capabilities of those who want to use Bards in their homestuck fan-content or even roleplays. And, best of all, I particularly like the interpretations of my friend over at the Tumblr blog simply known as 'classpect'.. They're the interpretations that I agree the most with, and generally what I reference nowadays as opposed to InfinityWhale's masterpost or similar, though I firmly believe that variety is the spice of life and as such I don't believe they're the ONLY valid interpretations, only the ones that align the most with what I think about the system and are the most widely applicable.

A few other posts that I find useful is Kaiju3's post on Aspect dualities, which is another one of these posts that shines the brightest when read alongside a few others (and provides an interpretation of Rage that I particularly like), and there's also Why Homestuck is a Gnostic Story, which isn't about Classpect per se but provides an interesting perspective on the comic that is also surprisingly accurate to its actual ending and may lead to interpretations of it that can benefit your Classpect knowledge.

And then there's the few theorists that I disagree a lot with, but find provide an interesting perspective on Classpect and the webcomic. The most popular of these is doubtlessly optimisticDuelist with their Aspect masterpost. I find that their way of interpreting the comic is good, but that's where it ends. You see, oD's analysis is fundamentally rooted on symbolism and textual cues, a pitfall BKEW also fell into a lot. But while that's great for analysis of the comic, it starts to break apart a little when you apply it to other things, such as other fictional pieces, or even real life. Classpect is a system that has, true to the webcomic, escaped its fictional restraints and Ascended beyond just Homestuck, becoming like a less intuitive and more complex MBTI in that it can be applied to a wide range of things. oD has realized this, but seems to believe that the same criterium they utilize for the webcomic are also valid for other things. I have no authority to judge them on this, but I also think that's a restrained way of going through it - when you apply Classpect to real life and other fictional works, you naturally drop the symbolic part of it all, and stick to the personality side. Gimping yourself by looking at things through a symbolic lens will inevitably lead you to reach less airtight conclusions.

Ultimately, I find Classpect to be a fun game. It's not something to be taken personally, and I also don't think that it's something that only has One Valid Interpretation (I count the official Extended Zodiac in that - if Hussie considered it to be the final authority on Aspect, I'd be taken aback, as that's unlike anything he's claimed he wants the comic to do), and I believe that Andrew and his crew understand this perfectly, which is why no Word of God stuff has actually happened on it. It's something that you read up on and go "wow, I could really do some neat stuff with this!". Don't turn this into astrology, folks, where we all think people of X class or X aspect are bad. It's not healthy for anyone, and I think that taking it to that level of seriousness is counter-productive. Besides, not like it's possible to categorize individuals anyway.

[KnightOfRage413]

Oh boy I missed out on my 'area of classpect expertise'. I actually went on a whole ass twitter rant about my interpretation of Rage as an aspect and how it relates to the Knight class a while back, maybe I'll copy paste it here if anyone is interested.

[epimetheusEmrys]

According to a couple of quizzes I took I’m a prince of life. I guess that means I either destroy with life or destroy life? Not really sure how that applies to me. I mean I guess I am kind of lazy, and princes usually are kind of lacking in their aspect at some point (Eridan being hopeless when talking to Jack, et cetera). Maybe I could like, make or influence living things to destroy things for me? Or maybe I’m just a walking wasteland? I hope it’s the former, the latter sounds depressing. Life also tends to have associations with healing, responsibility, and other stuff, so I guess I would somehow “destroy” that too? Man, I sound like an awful lot of trouble. Hopefully I can manifest this stuff in a positive way, like maybe motivating a person who takes their responsibilities too seriously to chill and enjoy themselves.

[RoyalFiddle]

Don't put too much stake in it, a large part of what you can do relates to what that classpect means to you, so, whatever Prince of Life means to you is the important thing. At least, that's a semi-common belief about classpects

[thorondraco]

Don't put too much stake in it, a large part of what you can do relates to what that classpect means to you, so, whatever Prince of Life means to you is the important thing. At least, that's a semi-common belief about classpects

Would make a lot of since if classpects were filling a niche but in general were how that individual chose to wield it. And more importantly, the loopholes of that niche.

[epimetheusEmrys]

Don't put too much stake in it, a large part of what you can do relates to what that classpect means to you, so, whatever Prince of Life means to you is the important thing. At least, that's a semi-common belief about classpects

Well thanks for putting that in perspective
Also thanks to the other guy I don’t know how to reply to two people at once.

[Joyfulldreams]

And then there's the few theorists that I disagree a lot with, but find provide an interesting perspective on Classpect and the webcomic. The most popular of these is doubtlessly optimisticDuelist with their Aspect masterpost. I find that their way of interpreting the comic is good, but that's where it ends. You see, oD's analysis is fundamentally rooted on symbolism and textual cues, a pitfall BKEW also fell into a lot. But while that's great for analysis of the comic, it starts to break apart a little when you apply it to other things, such as other fictional pieces, or even real life. Classpect is a system that has, true to the webcomic, escaped its fictional restraints and Ascended beyond just Homestuck, becoming like a less intuitive and more complex MBTI in that it can be applied to a wide range of things. oD has realized this, but seems to believe that the same criterium they utilize for the webcomic are also valid for other things. I have no authority to judge them on this, but I also think that's a restrained way of going through it - when you apply Classpect to real life and other fictional works, you naturally drop the symbolic part of it all, and stick to the personality side. Gimping yourself by looking at things through a symbolic lens will inevitably lead you to reach less airtight conclusions.

All your other points about how classpects are mostly just for fun and etc are great and I totally agree, but I don't think I really understand what you're saying here? How else do you interpret the classpect system if not symbolically? They are...quite literally symbols? The question is merely what you interpret those symbols to mean, how much value you attribute to that meaning, and where and how you choose to potentially apply that symbolism.

You seem to be implying that symbolism is something inherent to fiction, but that isn't the case? Symbols are a thing that are kind of fundamental to the human experience, really. Symbols are one of the main ways in which our minds interpret the world around us. Logos are symbols for companies, products, and experiences, or even people. The way we draw people in cartoons and the like are simply a series of symbols we have come to recognize as representative of human body parts, for example. Art styles are simply the set of symbols used to convey those ideas. And I don't think I need to mention how much impact symbols of things like political movements can have. Also, religion.

The only way to interpret something like this not symbolically or metaphorically is...to interpret them literally? And I genuinely don't know how one might interpret classpects literally. The very nature of them is so antithetical to any kind of literal reading? Unless you believe they are literally real? And will give you powers or something?? So like. I don't know if you meant something different when you say this, but I'm just confused as to what you mean. When you referred to a "symbolic lens" did you maybe mean "an interpretation of classpects that relies too heavily on their use within the context of homestuck as a text"?

Also i super duper do not know what "when you apply Classpect to real life and other fictional works, you naturally drop the symbolic part of it all, and stick to the personality side." means. The symbology...does also encompass the personality part? If you mean maybe that the interpretation of classpects we can come to by examining them through their execution in Homestuck must inherently be different when removed from the context of Homestuck, I disagree? I've applied OD's classpect theories both to real life and to other fictional works, and it works more than fine, and isn't particularly limiting? In fact, it provides a new and interesting context to view both real life and other works of fiction through.

[egg]

snip

In order to understand what I'm talking about, we need to first define what 'Classpect' symbology means. In order to do that, we'll need to understand how Homestuck handles the symbolism it utilizes for its characters first. BKEW provides much of this on his Aspect Duality post, but since people tend to have problems reading the stuff I post, I might as well go in detail here.
In the comic, characters who share a Class or an Aspect have imagery and very literal symbols associated with them. Doom with fire and explosions, black and white bombs. Life with cooking utensils and cake, or baking in general, and so forth, from the literal to the more distant interpretations of that Aspect entirely. Because Homestuck is internally consistent with this imagery (sort of), interpreting them and analyzing them are a valid way to understand the comic better.

However, in real life, and in works of fiction, this gets particularly difficult due to people associating things that can be completely out of your control with your Classpect. "I have breathing issues, hence I must be a Breath player of a class such as Mage, Prince or Bard";"I like baking, thus I must be a Life player";"I am a programmer and have an interest in robotics, thus I must be a Doom player of an Understanding class". In that context, it is better to understand Class as your primary means of interacting with the world and thus the most visible part of your title, and your Aspect as your worldview, values and ideals, not necessarily linked to your life situation or interests directly, but can provide an explanation for them, pushed sufficiently. This also applies in a somewhat similar direction to works of fiction. Classpects are archetypes, and these archetypes are utilized in fiction to accomplish certain goals (i.e. Princes are villain-type characters most of the time, as opposed to a more positive role). In order to understand how this can even apply to real life in the first place, we must refer to a historic figure - Aristotle.
Aristotle is, as you well know, a Greek philosopher, who wrote many things but specifically to our case something called the Poetics. To quote a good friend of mine, "Aristotle wrote the Poetics specifically to deconstruct the idea of literature, specifically what makes good literature. He wants to consider ‘what characteristic effect it has, how its plots should be constructed… and also the number and nature of the parts of which the form consists.’, and the importance of it is that it states that all good literature are mirrors, or imitations, of real life. In it, Aristotle also basically says that good plots are ones in which events unfold according to the realistic and probable wills and abilities of their characters. The natural inclinations of characters, when placed in particular circumstances, drive how a plot unfolds.

This allows us to simplify the ways in which I outlined Class and Aspect a little while above in two ways, Aspect being your will, and Class being your way, or ability. A classpect is thus not a collection of symbols or images, but a character's fundamental, most optimal impact on reality. There's a lot more to this than I just stated, and I'm basically just stealing this from a document my friend wrote who explains this a lot better than I could. If I can get her permission, I'll share it with you if necessary. Even so, most of that can also be understood by just... reading BKEW. Why do people never read the links I provide?
Now, oD's gotten better at Classpect over time. I'm still reeling in pain over the fact he once classpected Utena as a Prince because... she has royalty-related imagery, though that was a long time ago and he has since improved. Still, his understanding of Classpect is rooted more fundamentally in Homestuck's imagery (such as cooking utensils) than that of mine and a few other old theorists, which makes it harder to work with in real life and other works of fiction and leads to less experienced theorists who use oD as their primary source (remember I said about always using multiple sources?) classpecting people based off of their life situations and superficial behaviors, which is a way of doing it that I legally can't say is bad but that I personally disagree with. Again, I don't use Classpect as a tool for Homestuck analysis, I use it as a tool for self-improvement and analysis of other fictional works. It's not invalid, it doesn't fit my purposes.
If you still don't understand, I can provide you with further reading material and examples as necessary.

[Joyfulldreams]

Snip

Haha, I've read a lot of BKEW and other classpect theories, and I also know a bit about the philosophy behind a lot of a lot of these ideas, though the aristotle reference in particular is a new one which I quite like. I do remember reading a few vague things about that but I guess when it comes to my analysis of Homestuck things I've mostly been personally focused on Plato?

I also happen to edit a good majority of oD's videos, though, and his theories are my favorites.(I may be a tiny bit biased, he's also a good friend.) I was really mostly just confused about your phrasing, that's all. Symbolism is such a broad term, lol. I just happen to think you've gotten a wrong read on oD's theories? At least to a certain extent. He does like to examine what sorts of imagery and ideas are associated with particular aspects in Homestuck, as well as what fictional character archetypes are associated with which classes. Which are, indeed, pretty Homestuck-specific and are a bit limiting. But I don't think that is...the core of his theories? The idea at the center of his classpect theory really is not all that different from what you just said. In fact that's sort of where the core of his roleplay theory lies? In that a classpect is a representation of your ideal individual potential, in a way which takes into account how people may end up influenced by or emulate or admire ways of being or an idea of their potential which isn't completely compatible with who they actually are. Which is something that can apply to any fictional character, not just Homestuck ones, and also to real people. ALA the whole Aristotle thing you mentioned--which is why the classpect system in Homestuck is particularly compelling. Because it emulates something natural to real life.

Which is exactly how I like to think of my own classpect, desu. The way oD views it, we examine Homestuck to get an idea of what sort of mode of existence each class and aspect might represent in a broader sense. Each classpect is not only an expression of a person or character's inner potential, but also about their individual struggle with that potential and reality. When applied to myself or other real life people, it presents a way to think about what parts of life are most likely to challenge me (or are currently challenging me) and what might be the best thing for me to do in overcoming those challenges. It's really empowering in that way. (And how it's similar to the MBTI comparison you made.) It's also a very good thinking tool for conceptualizing character arcs for fictional characters.

I think maybe you got a little bogged down by the sort of superficial trappings and patterns that oD likes to examine and tack on to his theories because it's fun. The core of his theories really don't hinge on all that superficial stuff, though? It just seemed so odd to me that you seemed at odds with OD's theories when they are really barely different from what you've been saying your own thoughts are?

[aspiringWatcher]

snip

In order to understand what I'm talking about, we need to first define what 'Classpect' symbology means. In order to do that, we'll need to understand how Homestuck handles the symbolism it utilizes for its characters first. BKEW provides much of this on his Aspect Duality post, but since people tend to have problems reading the stuff I post, I might as well go in detail here.
In the comic, characters who share a Class or an Aspect have imagery and very literal symbols associated with them. Doom with fire and explosions, black and white bombs. Life with cooking utensils and cake, or baking in general, and so forth, from the literal to the more distant interpretations of that Aspect entirely. Because Homestuck is internally consistent with this imagery (sort of), interpreting them and analyzing them are a valid way to understand the comic better.

Not to be a dick but that's exactly how symbolism works - by creating associations and drawing upon them.

However, in real life, and in works of fiction, this gets particularly difficult due to people associating things that can be completely out of your control with your Classpect. <...> This also applies in a somewhat similar direction to works of fiction.

It is also important to point out that real-life classpectry is a very sketchy branch on the account of RL people being, you know, real. They don't always fit into neat little boxes of unfolding egos - sure, you have things like Myers-Briggs and enneagrams, but those are approximations and they don't restrict people into variably scripted roles.

I'd personally call hokum on the entire Poetics based on equating "good" to "realistic" but as someone who doesn't have a personal experience with it I should probably refrain from that.

A classpect is thus not a collection of symbols or images, but a character's fundamental, most optimal impact on reality.

I'll call a nope on this: a character's classpect is an arc. It's what their story is about and not necessarily what they do as a person - even if all they can be accounted for totals to an even zero they might still play a role worth watching and being interpreted.

[egg]

snip

Admittedly, I may be a little biased otherwise. I have no problem with oD himself, of course, but his fans do like to show up in the Classpect discord server I moderate and start picking fights, especially with Knight passive and Page active, which is a somewhat new theory that as far as I know he originated with. I think oD is competent enough, I mean, you'd have to be in order to get that level of success. That's not really oD's fault though, and you'll honestly find people like that who refuse to think for themselves under every theorist's wing, even BKEW (and Dahni too, actually, frequently so).
What I seek to eliminate is people who Classpect based on superficial circumstances, which is not oD (though we have our disagreements, given that some of the people he's classpected personally come to the server I'm in with some regularity and are frequently given something else entirely), I think he's ultimately grown past that, but a large percentage of his fanbase has not. I think it's generally just not fair to classpect someone based on their interests and life situation because a lot of people can do the same things yet have different ideals.
That being said I feel like oD's theories aren't of much use to me personally which is why I'll still recommend them but not really do much with them. Not bad, just not what I'm looking for.

Not to be a dick but that's exactly how symbolism works - by creating associations and drawing upon them.

Yep! I've always known this. The thing about that, though, is that I feel the person I was responding didn't fully understand what I meant by 'symbolism', which is why I clarified.

However, in real life, and in works of fiction, this gets particularly difficult due to people associating things that can be completely out of your control with your Classpect. <...> This also applies in a somewhat similar direction to works of fiction.


It is also important to point out that real-life classpectry is a very sketchy branch on the account of RL people being, you know, real. They don't always fit into neat little boxes of unfolding egos - sure, you have things like Myers-Briggs and enneagrams, but those are approximations and they don't restrict people into variably scripted roles.

I'd personally call hokum on the entire Poetics based on equating "good" to "realistic" but as someone who doesn't have a personal experience with it I should probably refrain from that.

The Poetics isn't being utilized here because it offers valid criticism necessarily (because that's entirely subjective) but that it provides the fundamental foundation as for why Classpect can be applied to real life with moderate success. And, yeah, it's all fake BS that will never fully describe someone, but that's fine by me. I don't expect it to be anything better than that.

I'll call a nope on this: a character's classpect is an arc. It's what their story is about and not necessarily what they do as a person - even if all they can be accounted for totals to an even zero they might still play a role worth watching and being interpreted.

What is an arc, but the optimization of your impact on reality? It seems you've misinterpreted - I don't mean that Classpect describes your behavioral characteristics (well, it does some, but not all of it), otherwise there would be no distinction between two individuals of the same Classpect, as much as it describes what lessons you have to learn, what learning these lessons will do for you and the others around you, and the way in which you best impact reality. A Prince destroys the negatives of their Aspect so that it may flourish and grow better - if they try to stray from that and adopt the lessons of, say, a Seer, which is to invite an intimate understanding of their Aspect, their growth will be stunted. That doesn't mean they can't have the same interests or similar traits, and in some cases they often do.