Classpect discussion

[Dream Muttman]

I wrote a whole rant and I kind of regret it now. Feels like harshing people's mellow, but it's what pops into my head whenever I see people seriously getting into arguments about classpects. I'll leave it below for whoever's interested in reading it, but feel free to treat it as non-canon if you dislike the content.

Spoiler

Show

Classpects are a giant trap for human pareidolia and apophenia. Pattern-seeking for its own sake without a solid working approach or enough substance to sift through. The strongest evidence for the meaning of Aspects is not symbolic but instead always literal and expositional, contrary to big classpect theorist beliefs.

John can do the Windy thing.

All of his other feats and ideas can't be proven to have anything to do with Breath as an Aspect or Heir as a Class, or even with Prospit as a Lunar Sway, nor with the Jack Noir effigy in his dream room or his Ultimate Self waiting in the wings.

There might even be some other form of influence that's never taken into account. Hussie as the narrator could color things, or there could be some other fictional layer full of levers and switches that move John Egbert we've never heard about or seen, like the one that makes random characters write down parts of the First Guardian code, which seemingly contradicts all arguments of Titles being built on agency or being universal to a character's role, because there's no pattern to who gets randomly picked to do that job. But the fact of the matter is John Egbert has Breath as an Aspect and this is proven by his super powers and nothing else. A character that doesn't have an Aspect-coded superpower may as well have no Class or Aspect.

People like to talk about symbolism and hyperflexible mythology, but Homestuck doesn't live up those claims. It's never managed to show even a sliver of the implications that follow from accepting Classpects as a fully realized system. It's always going to be half-baked because it was left that way, first unintentionally and now purposefully.

[Joyfulldreams]

I wrote a whole rant and I kind of regret it now. Feels like harshing people's mellow, but it's what pops into my head whenever I see people seriously getting into arguments about classpects. I'll leave it below for whoever's interested in reading it, but feel free to treat it as non-canon if you dislike the content.

Spoiler

Show

Classpects are a giant trap for human pareidolia and apophenia. Pattern-seeking for its own sake without a solid working approach or enough substance to sift through. The strongest evidence for the meaning of Aspects is not symbolic but instead always literal and expositional, contrary to big classpect theorist beliefs.

John can do the Windy thing.

All of his other feats and ideas can't be proven to have anything to do with Breath as an Aspect or Heir as a Class, or even with Prospit as a Lunar Sway, nor with the Jack Noir effigy in his dream room or his Ultimate Self waiting in the wings.

There might even be some other form of influence that's never taken into account. Hussie as the narrator could color things, or there could be some other fictional layer full of levers and switches that move John Egbert we've never heard about or seen, like the one that makes random characters write down parts of the First Guardian code, which seemingly contradicts all arguments of Titles being built on agency or being universal to a character's role, because there's no pattern to who gets randomly picked to do that job. But the fact of the matter is John Egbert has Breath as an Aspect and this is proven by his super powers and nothing else. A character that doesn't have an Aspect-coded superpower may as well have no Class or Aspect.

People like to talk about symbolism and hyperflexible mythology, but Homestuck doesn't live up those claims. It's never managed to show even a sliver of the implications that follow from accepting Classpects as a fully realized system. It's always going to be half-baked because it was left that way, first unintentionally and now purposefully.

I mean....you aren't WRONG. It IS just kinda dumb pattern-seeking without any real substance to it. xD And I do love a lot of theories people get up to, especially oD's, but 90% of it is built on not very much at all. That doesn't mean it can't be more than just fun, though, or that trying to examine and theorize about it is just a whole lot of puffing hot air. New meaning DOES come out of both Homestuck as a text, any other fictional text, even your own understanding of stories or even reality, when you try and view it through a classpecty lens. With or without solid, iron-clad evidence to back it up.

Since it isn't really about drawing clear conclusions, or answering questions, or solving problems. It's just about putting things into a different perspective, or a different frame of reference, from which new ideas or connections can be drawn. Sometimes those new ideas or connections are really just kind of useless and pointlessly obscure or specific. Sometimes they may actively distract from or contradict the more broad, and more important, ideas in the text or in life. So yeah, seeing that is kind of frustrating. But sometimes--fairly frequently, which is why it's so popular--they can be genuinely profound, leading you down an entirely new train of thought that in fact serves to better support or lead you to those bigger, more important ideas.

For example. Thinking about Dirk Strider as a Prince of Heart beyond just his fancy outfit or his apparent ability to rip souls out of bodies is genuinely helpful towards understanding him as a character. He's a destroyer of souls, sure, but also can be rephrased as a destroyer of the self, or of literal heart. It sort of literally makes his hero title "Self-Destruction Dude". Heart can be interpreted as the soul, the self, one's personality, or their feelings, emotions, and motivations. Dirk's both tries to destroy or suppress his own emotions through his dumb coolguy persona, and in turn his emotions which he can't control end up being destructive to both himself and the people around him. Dirk self-sabotages in the more traditional sense, but also, his soul literally is more prone to fracturing or splintering. And his soul is so self-destructive that those splinters literally are constantly getting in his own way, also impairing his ability to make genuine emotional connections with others. Etc etc.

There's also the moment where brobot, a dirk splinter in the form of a gift Dirk made for Jake that he literally and figuratively put a lot of himself into as a gesture of how much he cares, rips out the uranium that works as its heart and smashes it against a rock, just to give Jake something he needs. This is a parallel to something Aradiabot (a Maid of Time) did earlier, so sure, trying to attribute this action solely to the whole Prince of Heart thing is fairly bullshit. I could also point out that the bot body was specifically made by Equius, who obviously has a lot of really deliberate parallels to Dirk, and he's an Heir of Void. What does THAT mean?? The classpect shit has gotten so muddled, instantly! No CLEAR conclusions can be drawn. But it doesn't change the fact that thinking about the action through this lens ANYWAY leads to an understanding of a fundamental truth about Dirk: which is how he is a person who will destroy himself with the intensity of his feelings, often under the guise of doing it for other people's sake. Which is something that can easily be applied to multiple other things we see Dirk do over the course of Homestuck: the comic, and even potentially.......other things that Shall Not Be Named......but which still support the idea anyway. We were able to come to an understanding of something that was Not Bullshit by looking at it through this lens. There may be other ways to come to understand it, sure, but this is still one of them, and it's useful! And also fun!

[JakeMorph]

I'm definitely inclined to agree that classpect based analysis is little more than subjective pattern-seeking (which is why I almost always disagree with analysis that could down to "X class of Y aspect will ALWAYS be like this and ALWAYS have such and such powers"), but where death of the author is concerned, that's what ALL literary analysis is. what classes and aspects do is provide a scaffold for individual readings of the text, and I think that's what makes them so simultaneously unique to Homestuck and widely applicable to other media. very few other stories have a framework as straightforward as "these two characters have a fantasy outfit with the same coloured shirt, and therefore probably have conceptual and symbolic associations with each other".

[egg]

Classpect is "fake", the way I understand it. I think it has grown beyond what Hussie intended, even if he has enough material on hand to classpect his own team mates. There's no way he came up with Roleplaying theory, for example. It has basically become an offshoot, something like MBTI, and years of theories have provided sufficient material for it to function on its own. That being said it is also something you have to be careful with, as it essentially is just three words that may help you out a little and nothing else. I know a friend of mine who told a Homestuck he met he was a Prince of Mind and he got blocked. I think that's the point where it becomes less of a fun thing and more of an emotionally dangerous thing. I see a lot of people who get Classpected as Pages take it very personally too. It won't describe you in its entirety, it can't anyway, and it's really a silly thing made from an even sillier comic, so taking it that seriously is unhealthy, I feel.

[Sahxyel]

I know a friend of mine who told a Homestuck he met he was a Prince of Mind and he got blocked. I think that's the point where it becomes less of a fun thing and more of an emotionally dangerous thing. I see a lot of people who get Classpected as Pages take it very personally too. It won't describe you in its entirety, it can't anyway, and it's really a silly thing made from an even sillier comic, so taking it that seriously is unhealthy, I feel.

I think the problem there is in Homestuck itself Princes and Pages are negative classes to some degree. Prominent Pages are Tavros and Jake. Tavros' claim to fame as a Page is being victimized constantly by Vriska, being particularly weak and pathetic, and his crowning achievement fucking off into the dreambubbles to amass a dream army through friendship. He's still mostly normal Tavros, his resolution as a character doesn't change him still being a weenie, but he ends as a weenie tired of Vriska's shit for once. It's not really that impressive for all the buildup.

For an inspiring page, prior to all the 'extra' material there was the example of Grandpa being wildly successful on Beta Earth to foist up the idea that a fully realized Page takes both a long time to come into their own in Homestuck itself. He owns a massively successful business and owns his private island, he saves John in the game and pilots a ship that he uses to ferry Dad and Mom around in-game. He looks very competent, very cool, and very inspiring outside being a pretty archaic fellow who lets his baby play with guns. We sort of see a Page success first and then the starting point second which was very cool! Jake clearly would need to undergo plenty of experience to be such an amazing fellow! But Jake ends Homestuck regressing away from anything remotely inspiring about Grandpa, and disappointingly continues to be relentlessly trashed in supplementary materials that even retcons Grandpa's own competence and success.

Princes? HAHAHAHAHA. Lemme see we have Eridan and Dirk as the reps. In Homestuck, Eridan is listed as a villain along the likes of Gamzee, HIC, or Jack Noir. Everyone remembers him pulling a Pumped Up Kicks in the control room with his wand. Dirk in Homestuck starts with Bro as a sort of comparison point much like Grandpa is for Jake. We see the lens of how Dave viewed Bro, which establishes him as an abusive villainous person who made his life hell. Now, much of the jerk shit that happens really is more due to the Auto Responder, though we know that is just another shard of Dirk's 'Self', another point to see how bad he be. He confronts this and seems to come to a resolution to relinquish control and stop obsessively controlling others...only in the supplementary follow ups to renege hard on this and become another Princely villain he was meant to be.

Naturally, people aren't going to like either of these classes because they feel you're calling them a lame fucking weenie or a villainous asshole given how the only visible representations we have of these classes are uninspiring at best and downright repulsive at worst.

[egg]

I know a friend of mine who told a Homestuck he met he was a Prince of Mind and he got blocked. I think that's the point where it becomes less of a fun thing and more of an emotionally dangerous thing. I see a lot of people who get Classpected as Pages take it very personally too. It won't describe you in its entirety, it can't anyway, and it's really a silly thing made from an even sillier comic, so taking it that seriously is unhealthy, I feel.

sn0p

It's true. The most I can do to combat it is by providing examples of good Pages and Princes in other mediums, but that's really unreliable, esp. since everyone has a differing opinion on what defines a Page or a Prince in the first place. What I'm hoping for is that Homestuck^2 develops Jake significantly (doubt it) or introduces new characters in a new session (less unlikely, but). Failing everything else the Classpects in Vast Error are very well done.

[Brandibee]

On the whole what do Mages do question, its quite funny because I placed myself as one without ever even really knowing the answer to it. I'm Mage of Breath.

I came to the conclusion when I thought about how Breath relates to freedom in particular. Mages, in some of the theories I've read, are hounded all their lives by their aspect, in both positive and negative forms. Like a universal constant that touches nearly every part of their life, supplying just as many good points as drawbacks. Something that the bearer could put to use given the chance, but is just as well to hold them back.

In my case, all my life I've had this absolutely maddeningly burning drive to cast off everything I own and leave it all behind. To go absolutely anywhere other than where I am now, and to never stop moving. As a result, I can adapt to major upheavals in my life very quickly. Good or bad, they're always a breath of fresh air (hehe), something that will abate the urge for just a little while longer. But I also have a job and a home to come back to. I have responsibilities. I can't just throw it all to the wind (hehehe) no matter how much I want to. So I'm both given positive and negative qualities in equal sums from it.

Who knows what it would allow me to do, but I still think it fits quite well.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I'm a Hero of Heart according to the test. (well i got space at first but redid it) I like being on the darker half of the aspect wheel. Aspects seem to be what you're interested in, so the aspect test basically goes "Hey, do you want to go to space?" and, if you say yeah then it assigns you Space. That seems "real" to me, even if it makes the test fake.

Naturally, people aren't going to like either of these classes because they feel you're calling them a lame fucking weenie or a villainous asshole given how the only visible representations we have of these classes are uninspiring at best and downright repulsive at worst.

I don't know, I think these are super cool things to be. Underdogs are cool. And if other people think people with those classes suck, that just proves how cool they are. The enemy of an underdog is the oppressor.

[Raven]

I have always been very much interested in the Classpect system, and I seem to have a lot of great posts to catch up on.

While I do so, I'll just say this : I'm supposedly the Sylph of Life, and the role itself kind of grew on me. At first I was... well I won't say disappointed per se but I think I really wanted to be a Mind player (Yes, my favorite character is Terezi. I know, I'm super original). But I developped my own understanding of what being the Sylph of Life meant and I really grew attached to it.

I have no idea if my definition of the role fits canon theories or is in lign with the general consensus, and well, to be honest ... I don't really care ? I believe any kind of personality test result is more about how you interpret the result and make peace with what that means for you.

That being said I would really like to know what the certified Classpect experts have to say on the matter ! So hit me with your description of what a Sylph of Life would be to you !

I like to see it as the role of the enhancer, the one that strives to fix the life of others. And I think that kind of suits me as a person

[Joe mama]

Admittedly, I may be a little biased otherwise. I have no problem with oD himself, of course, but his fans do like to show up in the Classpect discord server I moderate and start picking fights,

By the way, Egg’s discord server is Classpect Rumpus Zone (invite link). (Removed.) On that server, the admins don’t get much criticism for their theories. I recommend joining if you have any original theories of your own. It’s not picking a fight to suggest new ideas. (not to sound rude in saying this.)

This seems to be a dummy account for criticizing and dogpilng a specific discord server, which is in violation of our No Beefing rule. Don't do this. ~Gio

[egg]

By the way, Egg’s discord server is Classpect Rumpus Zone (invite link). On that server, the admins don’t get much criticism for their theories. I recommend joining if you have any original theories of your own. It’s not picking a fight to suggest new ideas. (not to sound rude in saying this.)

I appreciate the publicity, I certainly have no problem with it. I would appreciate if you came up to us in the server and warned us before posting invite links in public places, as that can invite high traffic to the server (not that this forum is particularly super populated anyway, much less this thread).

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

it already expired :( PM me

[lavendersiren]

Something that can be a bit dangerous with classpect assignment, in my opinion, is just how much a class's baggage assumes a destiny and/or trajectory for a person. This can be useful on face value when beginning to write your own characters, but when it comes to actual people and characters which may later be developed beyond the class's assumed archetype, that's where it can get stifling at best and downright harmful at worst.
People change. People also can't see the future. Planning ahead will only lead you so far, maybe to the end of a character arc or two, before things either diverge against or stagnate with that classpect.
Thinking about it, if godtiers are really given immortality via sburb, why would they be saddled with an immutable unchangable title when they have countless years to pursue other focuses and/or gradually start acting differently? It's almost sorta like dnd alignments, in that some temperments are baked-in, but it's like, a rough approximation which not everything fits in. Where classpects diverge however, is that they're even less complete in their scopes, let alone in known terms for the more obscure classes and aspects.

Where they shine however, is when you can find a way to put your own spin on them to tell the story you want to. Make the structure your own, so to speak. This doesn't particularly work on irl classpecting, but it's great for writing.

Official quiz pinned me down as space, if only because I didn't want the responsibility of time travel. Can't remember what class I got. Sylph maybe?

[RoyalFiddle]

Bah time travel is fuck ton easier than breeding frogs, fuck having to do that

[egg]

Something that can be a bit dangerous with classpect assignment, in my opinion, is just how much a class's baggage assumes a destiny and/or trajectory for a person. This can be useful on face value when beginning to write your own characters, but when it comes to actual people and characters which may later be developed beyond the class's assumed archetype, that's where it can get stifling at best and downright harmful at worst.

Classpect is better utilized as inspiration for making fictional characters. Even without taking the 'arc' into consideration, Classpect is still such a broad description of a person that relying on it as your sole character building material will inevitably make for an incredibly shallow person. Think about what the three words mean to you and build off of that, as opposed to trying to adhere to a strict guideline. That's what I tell people - I've been roleplaying (and by extension writing, though I've barely ever done any solo writing due to a combination of ADHD, depression and social anxiety) for nearly 8 years now and I've found out that people all have their unique styles of how to build characters. My brain thinks in boxes, and so Classpect makes it more convenient for me, but I'm not so incompetent as to rely on it singularly.

As for real life people, well, we all know Classpect is fake. And even so, if you look at it from the broadest perspective possible, everyone has the same two lessons they need to learn - don't be an asshole to yourself and others, and aim to gain as much self-awareness as possible. That's all you need, really. Not only that, but few Classpect theorists actually bother to think about Classpect arcs. As far as I know, I'm in what seems to be somewhat of a minority in trying to use it as a self-help tool, which is fine and honestly something I'm glad for as it could lead to some seriously self-destructive behavior. People I've met already use Classpect for self-flagellation enough, which is sort of completely opposite to my goals.

How you learn the lessons in your life always differs between people, and that's what my interpretation of Classpect aims to clarify, but it doesn't necessarily mean you'll always need to work on the same things as you grow. Life throws different problems at you, and dealing with these isn't what it aims to help with anyway, due to how absurdly broad it is. And I think that, if a problem is emotional and not caused by mental illness or by life events that could not have been avoided, then there's a root cause that must be discovered and taken care of. I've met so many people who keep running into problems because they refuse to be self-aware. It's not that hard.

[AquaticArbiter]

Rogue of Heart checking in!!!

Normally, having a shared classpect with a canon character makes this easy. That is, unless it's Nepeta. She didnt get a chance to develop any powers, HOWEVER she does show her Rogue of Heart skillz in her interactions- specifically Roleplaying. She invites (steals) others to change their identity (soul, aka Heart,) for the fun of it. Her roleplay is solely for fun, and other people seem to genuinely enjoy it.

As for powers? I think RoH's serve as buffers of sorts, stealing negative emotions and transmitting them to the opponent, or even stealing souls to boost the powers of their allies.

Im genuinely curious to other people's takes on this classpect, cuz it upon closer inspection is extremely vague

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I think the shift to love and rivalry is part of a larger trend in Homestuck's worldbuilding. Things like the gender-enforced Classes seemed like they were put in the story to generate conflict, but because fans didn't enjoy those restrictions they were slowly worn away. Slowly the story shifted away from "SBURB is full of cosmic, agency-stealing horror" and titles started applying to people who won't ever play the game, with no inherently negative connotations.

I don't see classes being assigned to people who don't play the games, only aspects.

[Dream Muttman]

I'm not sure if you want me to respond, or what you want to discuss if you indeed do. I did say titles, by which I meant "at least Aspects, possibly Classes".

[thorondraco]

I'm not sure if you want me to respond, or what you want to discuss if you indeed do. I did say titles, by which I meant "at least Aspects, possibly Classes".

When we got the hiveswap troll stuff the emphasis was on aspects alone. However with trolls it seems implied that it is common that a troll with the same sign will inevitably pop up again. And trolls sharing the same sign are effectively clones. However with the pre and post scratch trolls they have different classes compared to their 'ancestors and descendants'. very different ones in fact.

That seems to imply that Aspects represent an inherent nature to a degree, if a very malleable one. But because it is malleable that someone with the same sign can have a different class. Aspect could be nature, and Class the result of nurture.

Of course with paradox space's fate narrative bullshit decides the Class is often decided beforehand. But in a theoretical scenario where it doesn't, its plausible that classes develop depending on the person's surroundings, when those surroundings aren't dictated.

This also might be why paradox space is so controlling too and seems to ensure that certain alternate selves retain the same classes. Cause if we look at ultimate self stuff, its very possible that one could inherit multiple classes and their abilities.

[Dream Muttman]

The alpha and beta trolls are not perfect clones. If they were they would have had to be sent back to become themselves, which would be impossible.