The Vast Error Thread

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by austinado » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:12 am

Tarty_ wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:54 pm
This feels like something I should address, one abrasive e-funnyman to another. You can't bottle up things under a layer of apathy forever. Sooner or later that apathy is going to come out, leaking it's disgusting sticky apathy fluids all over the place. It's best to take action, or you'll end up regretting it in the future. Let me just throw my rusty chipped two cents into the ring. The Vast Error readerbase has gotten big, a lot bigger than you expected certainly, you said it yourself. So now's probably the time to rethink how you approach community interaction, how the community acts and your attachment to it.
This current arrangement that me and the VE fanbase have is notably temporary, I feel. If we keep up at this rate, as a creator, it would be overwhelming to continue as we are. This is sort of my philosophy when it comes to this constant sense of communication and response, I see it almost like you knowing you have a very limited time to do this sort of thing, to be this engaged in the discussion (for better or for worse). Eventually, even if I'm still "unprofessional" or making mistakes, there is going to be a time in the relatively near future where I am not able to answer these kinds of questions or make funny tweets on the regular. At least not in this specific capacity. I doubt there will ever be a day where I'm LACKING in things to say and conversation to spark, but eventually it'll simply be a personal endeavor, rather than me speaking on behalf of anything. Much less VE and how it's handled.

Like you said, it's all a learning experience. I'm taking everything I'm doing here and I'm going to use it as a basis for whatever I do next, and to improve.

I'll never really be gone, I'll just change. I already have in a lot of ways.
hamifihekrix wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:54 am
so when are we gonna find out more about vellia, arguably one of the best characters in vast error.
I've written a bit about her and Pozzol a few months ago here:



This is really all I have to say about her at the moment besides what the comic shows for now. Though we may see her again in the future! Who knows?
Momo wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:57 pm
There have been very fair criticisms of its tendency to grab cultural artifacts thoughtlessly (originally naming the compecados Wendigos, Murrit's dialogue) But I believe Heather, Austin & Co are empathetic enough people to work on this element and interrogate it. Vast Error is ultimately worked on by a broad range of people who want to come together to make something good, and I believe in them.
Nepotism aside, I think this is probably a good jumping point to finally make a comment about these things specifically. I feel comfortable doing it here, though I don't think I have as much to say about it as I do with other facets of VE's creative process because to be frank, these are things that require more listening than discussion on my part.

The Lefty Situation remains to be one of my biggest regrets in VE's creative timeline. Thoughtlessly is the correct word here, more on the side of ignorance and misunderstanding for that case specifically. I didn't really comprehend the gravity of using the concept, as from consuming other various pieces of media in the past, I saw the utilization of wendigo as something akin to using a famous movie monster. I wasn't under the impression it held genuine significance to native people and as such, when the question was broached I saw it more as a joke or a minor complaint as opposed to something that could be construed as anything akin to appropriation. Not doing my research and not listening initially is on me, and I explained that in my apology. We did the right thing in changing it, even though I know some folks will forever see it as a major stain on VE's track record and it has soured my relationship with a few people. I may regret the fact that it had to happen at all, but I do not regret it happening. I would much rather be told that what I am doing is wrong and to change it than double down and pretend like everything is okay.

Murrit is a much more complicated story, and I have always been willing to accept amicable discussion about it from those who wish to respectfully voice their concerns. Initially, the reaction on both sides was very hostile because it came from a callout post created from a person who has a long standing relationship of pestering and manipulating people around the comic/HS fanbase. I do think there's something to be said about how the way he speaks encourages the idea of a stereotype, even if unintentionally. While he was not written to BE anywhere near a stereotype (he was written to essentially be me without any kind of filter when pushing his facade and was initially concepted as being a jersey boy a la Jersey Shore. boy 2011 sure was a year.), there are undeniably aspects of AAVE that slip into his speech simply through cultural osmosis from years of its cultivation into meme culture and warped shorthands. This isn't necessarily a fault of the comic itself, but when you take it all into account? It begins to add up. The fact that I accidentally called Arcjec's human interpretation a "normal white american" in the initial post that got called out didn't really help the situation either, but that was much more a fault of my grammar than me actually thinking that white means the norm. I was going for something like: "he's average 80's sitcom normal, and he is white". Also the original mockup of human designs was also made almost three years ago now and I don't think either me or Heather agree with its contents anymore. But regardless, the conversation still stands. And while I can't change Murrit or his manner of speaking, I would like to take the thoughts from other black readers who feel this way and be able to talk about HOW and WHY he does these things in a manner I haven't been able to before.

I doubt these two things will be the last major discourses VE has, but like you said, I really want to take these things and think about them as much as possible. And like I said up earlier in this post, VE continues to be a learning experience. Only from this kind of stuff, can we find ways to do better in the future.

It sucks, but sometimes things need to suck for people to figure things out. I'm not immune from this.
Last edited by austinado on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by Tarty_ » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:01 am

austinado wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:12 am
Like you said, it's all a learning experience. I'm taking everything I'm doing here and I'm going to use it as a basis for whatever I do next, and to improve.
Well, that's good to hear.
austinado wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:12 am
The Lefty Situation remains to be one of my biggest regrets in VE's creative timeline. Thoughtlessly is the correct here, more on the side of ignorance and misunderstanding for that case specifically. I didn't really comprehend the gravity of using the concept, as from consuming other various pieces of media in the past, I saw the utilization of wendigo as something akin to using a famous movie monster. I wasn't under the impression it held genuine significance to native people and as such, when the question was broached I saw it more as a joke or a minor complaint as opposed to something that could be construed as anything akin to appropriation. Not doing my research and not listening initially is on me, and I explained that in my apology.
I frankly have to disagree here, perhaps more so with the people that took offence than the response itself. Even ignoring the reputation of the person probably most central to the controversy and assuming they're acting entirely in good faith, cultural figures are ultimately transient, and as someone who, as aggrandising as it sounds, "belongs" to a pair of cultures with a great share of monsters, cryptids, and other such things I would much rather see other peoples embrace them than have them become sacred cows and die out in some attempt to preserve and protect against "appropriation". Faeries, giants, sea serpents, goblins and the famed Hellenic beasts of old like the hydra... God knows if I took offence to every portrayal of them in popular culture I'd be a very angry, bitter person. As long as it's not downright racist, it's all good. Sidenote, what the hell is a compecado? No, really, as someone who speaks Spanish (albeit poorly) I recognise the word but not any significance to it.
austinado wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:12 am
Murrit is a much more complicated story, and I have always been willing to accept amicable discussion about it from those who wish to respectfully voice their concerns.
-SNIP-
I do think there's something to be said about how the way he speaks encourages the idea of a stereotype, even if unintentionally. While he was not written to BE anywhere near a stereotype (he was written to essentially be me without any kind of filter when pushing his facade and was initially concepted as being a jersey boy a la Jersey Shore. boy 2011 sure was a year.), there are undeniably aspects of AAVE that slip into his speech simply through cultural osmosis from years of its cultivation into meme culture and warped shorthands.
-SNIP-
And while I can't change Murrit or his manner of speaking, I would like to take the thoughts from other black readers who feel this way and be able to talk about HOW and WHY he does these things in a manner I haven't been able to before.
I'd also have to echo the same sentiment here. Admittedly I know much less about this than the Lefty thing I don't have the best grounds to talk with any authority, but putting aside the fact that these characters are not human and as such drawing comparisons to humans beyond what's clear parody is a fool's errand, I do simply not see how behaving in a manner others might consider stereotypical of your ethnicity is somehow wrong or offensive. Do whatever the hell you want, acting to avoid stereotypes is just as toxic as being boxed in by them. Besides, I always saw Murrit as reflecting Italian-American stereotypes more than anything else. As you said, a Jersey boy. And I say with all my little meatball heart that it's fuckin beautiful. Lunga vita al popolo italiano!
Last edited by Tarty_ on Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by aspiringWatcher » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:09 am

Tarty_ wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:01 am

I frankly have to disagree here, perhaps more so with the people that took offence than the response itself. Cultural figures are ultimately transient, and as someone who, as aggrandising as it sounds, "belongs" to a pair of cultures with a great share of monsters, cryptids, and other such things I would much rather see other peoples embrace them than have them become sacred cows and die out in some attempt to preserve and protect against "appropriation". Faeries, giants, sea serpents, goblins and the famed Hellenic beasts of old like the hydra... God knows if I took offence to every portrayal of them in popular culture I'd be a very angry, bitter person. As long as it's not downright racist, it's all good. Sidenote, what the hell is a compecado? No, really, as someone who speaks Spanish (albeit poorly) I recognise the word but not any significance to it.
I think the deal with wendigo is that a) the Native American tribes (Algonquian, correct?) from whose folklore the concept hails are still around and are not amused that b) a piece of their culture is constantly misinterpreted and appropriated, while the Hellenic mythology is so intertwined with Western culture that there isn't really anything to appropriate.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by Tarty_ » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:21 am

aspiringWatcher wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:09 am
I think the deal with wendigo is that a) the Native American tribes (Algonquian, correct?) from whose folklore the concept hails are still around
Yes. As are Gaels, Greeks, Anglos, Norse, Arabs, Persians, Han Chinese, and thousands of other disparate ethnic groups.
aspiringWatcher wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:09 am
and are not amused that b) a piece of their culture is constantly misinterpreted and appropriated, while the Hellenic mythology is so intertwined with Western culture that there isn't really anything to appropriate.
What? If you think the tales of the Greeks aren't misinterpreted then do I have news for you. Something being intertwined with wider consciousness doesn't make it lesser. Though I suppose that's ultimately besides the point to be made, that is about all the other exampels that come from Gaelic folklore. If I had a dime for every single time I saw the aes sídhe, Ulster Cycle, the stories of Fionn mac Cumhaill and the Fianna or Arthurian legends were misused I'd be a very rich man. Yet I don't complain when I see non-Brits use them. Why? Because it means they take interest. It means they care, and that's where my fundamental disagreement with the idea of cultural appropriation comes from.

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by Deageon » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:18 am

hamifihekrix wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:49 am
Deageon wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:41 am
Also it helps that half of the characters make me do that cursed emoji face + heavy breathing, fuck, some of these corporate trolls got me feeling real capitalistic if u get my drift
look i'm not a capitalist but i'd let hamifi rope me into losing all my money and being financially in debt if you know what i'm saying

i wholeheartedly agree, even if thinking about the words cuties and capitalism in the same sentence make me get flashes of the wonderbread guy's art. oh no. hamifi buying wonderbread.jpg when

edit: also desu i still think the whole lefty situation was heavily overblown, it's not like yknow, the lusus (lusi?) was dressed in a 1930s racist caricature. it was more like a not amazing misnaming, but not that bad in general

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by egg » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:35 am

I didn't see anyone complaining when the Wendigo episode of MLP came out.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by JakeMorph » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm

Tarty_ wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:21 am
What? If you think the tales of the Greeks aren't misinterpreted then do I have news for you. Something being intertwined with wider consciousness doesn't make it lesser. Though I suppose that's ultimately besides the point to be made, that is about all the other exampels that come from Gaelic folklore. If I had a dime for every single time I saw the aes sídhe, Ulster Cycle, the stories of Fionn mac Cumhaill and the Fianna or Arthurian legends were misused I'd be a very rich man. Yet I don't complain when I see non-Brits use them. Why? Because it means they take interest. It means they care, and that's where my fundamental disagreement with the idea of cultural appropriation comes from.
the "I'm not offended by X and therefor other people should not be offended by X" argument isn't as compelling as you seem to think it is. I don't understand what you think you stand to gain by arguing a point that the author of the work and the people who were offended in the first place both already agreed was worth changing.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by Tarty_ » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:47 pm

JakeMorph wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm
the "I'm not offended by X and therefor other people should not be offended by X" argument isn't as compelling as you seem to think it is. I don't understand what you think you stand to gain by arguing a point that the author of the work and the people who were offended in the first place both already agreed was worth changing.
I'm simply putting out there the reasons why I wouldn't be offended in the same situation and why the actions taken by the people who got upset aren't justifiable, without explicitly naming names or dragging out things that should be rightly settled. This isn't a refutation, just an aside. Unless of course you think I somehow made a false equivalence in comparing one culture to another or something.

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by egg » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:28 pm

cage.jpg
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Hmmm...
murit.png
murit.png (34.36 KiB) Viewed 4530 times
HMMMMMM....
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by ANCIENT_HOLIDAY » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:59 pm

Tarty_ wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:47 pm
JakeMorph wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm
the "I'm not offended by X and therefor other people should not be offended by X" argument isn't as compelling as you seem to think it is. I don't understand what you think you stand to gain by arguing a point that the author of the work and the people who were offended in the first place both already agreed was worth changing.
I'm simply putting out there the reasons why I wouldn't be offended in the same situation and why the actions taken by the people who got upset aren't justifiable, without explicitly naming names or dragging out things that should be rightly settled. This isn't a refutation, just an aside. Unless of course you think I somehow made a false equivalence in comparing one culture to another or something.
The interpretation of a Wendigo as a horned beast was literally some white guy back in the day looking for a scary name for his monster and deciding upon it. That in of itself is justification enough to me to take umbrage with it's popular perception taking this form. Also yeah, I would call it a false equivalency comparing an ancient people to a very-much still living one. Ancient Greek faith is in a stark minority, and modern-day Greeks aren't the exact same people who were knocking about in antiquity. This kind of take is pretty ill-informed desu
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by DonutHeart » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:25 am

Oh hey, I'm here now in the VE thread!

Hi everyone, I'm Donut, and I've been a Vast Error fan and contributor for quite a while and it makes me personally thrilled to see a thread having been created about it that is bustling! I'm glad that you all care about this story and its intricacies enough to read through posts and participate, even if I don't necessarily agree with everything presented so far.

Vast Error as a character-driven narrative has been something that's resonated with me for a long time in a way that Homestuck has when I was 13, perhaps even a little more so now that I'm older and around the same age as the main VE cast.
Whereas Homestuck is a long stretching and content flooding media piece that is mainly about growing up as a teenager, Vast Error is a media piece brimming with detail that is primarily focused on young adults who have grown up but were ultimately left unsatisfied, troubled, and unsure of where to go from there, whether it's due to mental illness, societal pressures, isolation, trauma, debilitating responsibility, or fear of the world outside or perhaps some grim combination of those obstacles.

I personally see that as to why Vast Error is so often compared/contrasted with Homestuck more than any other fan story because it's a sort of amalgamation of subversion, expansion, and response to HS as a coming of age story. At the beginning of Homestuck, the beta kids were a compact, positive friend group who were simply focused on playing a world-ending game together, while Vast Error starts with a friend group that has mysteriously tarnished with Arcjec, a young adult who's severely depressed, purposefully isolating himself from the others with initially zero interest in partaking in a world-saving game, and it's up to the story to both illuminate on why things became the way they were and where it all goes from there, uncertain of which pieces get picked up or left to decay.

I can see why such an emotionally realistic and bleak approach and the drama the characters are facing can drive potential readers away. Vast Error is definitely NOT a story that's aimed at the faint of heart; it is and will focus on serious and rather gruesome and uncomfortable matters such as mental illness, trauma, sex (not explicitly), etc. It's not exactly what I would call a story one can easily escape into, especially since VE already makes points against escapism, sometimes even literally (see: Arcjec deciding to stand his ground instead of just leaving before [S] Engage).
It's not that it's an anti-escapism text per se, especially since that is a way some people cope and even some of the characters like Sova and Jentha, but it does make a point that escaping from reality unwisely can cause one to stagnate, that there's something detrimental about wanting to leave the world behind forever because of something tragic that's happened to them.
While I do understand why the drama in VE's story can drive someone away, that doesn't mean that it's pointless or insignificant. Relationships, whether platonic or romantic can tarnish and drift away or fall apart, abandonment and misunderstandings can happen, and well, "sometimes love just isn't enough. Sometimes what you need is understanding", to quote Dirk fucking Strider. And whenever these things happen, rarely is it without reason, people and by extension, their relationships with other people are complicated, not everything is as simple as black and white or good and bad.

I think it's important for stories such as Vast Error to focus on such heavy themes in a way that's empathetic and full of feelings that are poured in by not just the authors but by many people including myself (it's sort of why people write angst fanfics). I know that in a way, whatever I say here is going to be sprinkled with a little bit of bias because of the fact that I do contribute to the story in some capacity (I made Hayyan and Crytum, hello lmao) and I consider the VE team to be my closest or even my best friends but that is a part of my feelings towards VE.

It's a rich narrative that, despite some ridiculous aspects and humor put into it, is communicating about a multitude of complex issues that are so difficult to list off in just one round but are nonetheless problems that anyone, in some way, can understand, and I admire that (and a lot more) about it so much <3

Anyways, I'm probably going to mostly lurk the place, leave posts here and there, I'm just here to talk about why I love the absolute shit out of Vast Error so much, hope everyone has a good night!
Last edited by DonutHeart on Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by tajazzled » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:37 pm

everyone shut up and listen to me haha lol poopoo peepee!!!! wast errows a cool up and coming amateur comic where everyones got a lot to learn about life and writing and interpersonal relationships, and not just in the comic itself. just keep moving forward, you can't change the past but you can inspect it and take what was good about it while looking critically at your own mistakes while ALSO working towards a better future for the comic (and yourselves). i think everyone involved is completely capable of doing so. dont listen to the petty whims of people who Are Not Writing Your Comic and also take advice from people giving critique because they DONT want to see you fail, and they DO want to see the comic become better and better. you don't even have to listen to all or any of it, either, but you know its still interesting to know what other people see in your work, and what they think could be improved. being in the public eye sucks because everything you do is constantly scrutinized, but don't change yourself or your work for others who aren't aware of your actual vision. we all know i have my own issues (lots of them) and that im rarely ever right about anything, but if there is one thing you should do (the girl reading this!), its read vast error! don't go into it looking for problems, but don't go into it expecting the next homestuck, and from the story itself, form your own opinion on it!!! fart fart my butts blasting off remember the most important thing here is damn ellsee is fuckin HOTT but also you 100% cant please everyone and thats fine, you gotta take a step back from your mountain of clutter and work servers and leeldleedleedlee frt for a while and try to center YOURSELF again :cal:

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by PilotBlackSmith » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:51 pm

tajazzled wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:37 pm
everyone shut up and listen to me haha lol poopoo peepee!!!! wast errows a cool up and coming amateur comic where everyones got a lot to learn about life and writing and interpersonal relationships, and not just in the comic itself. just keep moving forward, you can't change the past but you can inspect it and take what was good about it while looking critically at your own mistakes while ALSO working towards a better future for the comic (and yourselves). i think everyone involved is completely capable of doing so. dont listen to the petty whims of people who Are Not Writing Your Comic and also take advice from people giving critique because they DONT want to see you fail, and they DO want to see the comic become better and better. you don't even have to listen to all or any of it, either, but you know its still interesting to know what other people see in your work, and what they think could be improved. being in the public eye sucks because everything you do is constantly scrutinized, but don't change yourself or your work for others who aren't aware of your actual vision. we all know i have my own issues (lots of them) and that im rarely ever right about anything, but if there is one thing you should do (the girl reading this!), its read vast error! don't go into it looking for problems, but don't go into it expecting the next homestuck, and from the story itself, form your own opinion on it!!! fart fart my butts blasting off remember the most important thing here is damn ellsee is fuckin HOTT but also you 100% cant please everyone and thats fine, you gotta take a step back from your mountain of clutter and work servers and leeldleedleedlee frt for a while and try to center YOURSELF again :cal:
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by tajazzled » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:51 pm

is it? i thought this was my house and everyone was just here having a party

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by egg » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:05 pm

tajazzled wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:37 pm
wast errows
never uwu in this thread ever again
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by tajazzled » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:17 pm

egg wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:05 pm
tajazzled wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:37 pm
wast errows
never uwu in this thread ever again
believe it or not that was an actual typo i left in because it made me laugh

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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by egg » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 pm

Austin, can you please promise me you'll keep the codpiece on Arcjec's outfit if he ascends (as long as the God Tier outfits are the same, or if you can even Ascend at all), because the Bard outfit is worthless without the cod.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by aspiringWatcher » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:10 pm

egg wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 pm
Austin, can you please promise me you'll keep the codpiece on Arcjec's outfit if he ascends (as long as the God Tier outfits are the same, or if you can even Ascend at all), because the Bard outfit is worthless without the cod.
discord search says VET is remaking all outfits and the cod sock is not a stay.
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by DonutHeart » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:11 pm

egg wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:44 pm
Austin, can you please promise me you'll keep the codpiece on Arcjec's outfit if he ascends (as long as the God Tier outfits are the same, or if you can even Ascend at all), because the Bard outfit is worthless without the cod.
Ascension in The Game in VE is possible but not only is the process different, so is a lot of other things, one of which being the outfit one gain when becoming their Pure Self (that's what it's called as opposed to going God Tier).

Obviously, since no one in the game has reached that point just yet, I won't go into the specifics but 1. Arcjec (if he were to go Pure Self) would not have the codpiece, and 2. all outfits for classes, bards included, are going to be different designs drawn by Heather to help give The Game more of its own identity further rather than simply Sburb.

Even though the two mediums share a few similarities (classpects, dream moons, lands, the existence of denizens, etc.) there's a lot of contrasting intricacies in how those things function and work and I find such differences very interesting. :pleasant: I hope the revelation isn't too ruinous for you lmao
"Homestuck’s not a BAD webcomic, it’s an AMAZING WEBCOMIC! But it’s also a bad webcomic-"

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TC
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Re: The Vast Error Thread

Post by TC » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:16 pm

I draw the line at no cod.
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