Carapaces Are People Too

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by classpectanon » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:49 am

i cannot believe this is a thread we are having an argument on. cut it out.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by luigi » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:47 pm

classpectanon wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:49 am
i cannot believe this is a thread we are having an argument on. cut it out.
I know right. I showed it to a couple of people from around the forums and we had a good chuckle. NOSES OR LIPS? NOSES OR LIPS CA!?!?!?!?!
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by calamityCons » Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:02 pm

:jadesob: I’ll make another thread later.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by trying » Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:54 am

Interesting question, I think carapacians are probably people, though I sort of wonder at the potential physical / spiritual differences between races that sburb creates, are are innate in a session, vs those that arise pseudo organically (as organic as the word can mean given all the context i think) in the created session. Humans and trolls for example, aren't created as a part of the session, consorts and carapacians are, this may lend itself to differences in dna or souls etc.

I think my two cents probably lie somewhere near they're people, but may not enjoy the same "relevancy" statistics that rose outlines in the epilogues due to being a sort of "stock lifeform", if that makes sense? I do hope they're given more relevancy. The mayor is important. :amazed: :amazed:

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by thorondraco » Mon Mar 23, 2020 3:51 am

trying wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 1:54 am
Interesting question, I think carapacians are probably people, though I sort of wonder at the potential physical / spiritual differences between races that sburb creates, are are innate in a session, vs those that arise pseudo organically (as organic as the word can mean given all the context i think) in the created session. Humans and trolls for example, aren't created as a part of the session, consorts and carapacians are, this may lend itself to differences in dna or souls etc.

I think my two cents probably lie somewhere near they're people, but may not enjoy the same "relevancy" statistics that rose outlines in the epilogues due to being a sort of "stock lifeform", if that makes sense? I do hope they're given more relevancy. The mayor is important. :amazed: :amazed:
A big quetion is if carapacians have an ultimate self.

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by magnanimousLad » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:23 am

oh hell yeah i can absolutely get down with the conceit of this thread. In general, I would say a lot of Sburb elements of the comic fell to the backburner as time went on, but the carapacians get it the worst. I never understood the argument for them being game constructs as a way of dismissing any characterisation they might have or develop, considering that while they're preprogrammed with certain traits (Jack will always be stabby, DD will always have a penchant for fine suits, etc.), they've repeatedly shown the capacity to have an emotional range outside of those preprogrammed traits. Hell, AR wasn't even an important unit, we see on Prospit that Authority Regulators are a dime-a-dozen, but he still showed quite a significant range of emotions and feelings beyond his preassigned duties. Plus, if we're going with the game construct argument, technically so are the players, considering Sburb has them ectobiologically created in the same labs the carapacians are created.
It's funny to me how the role carapacians seem to play in current Homestuck/the fanon in general is already filled in Homestuck proper by the Consorts, and as said before in this thread, even they have a little more going on under the hood than is immediately obvious.
On a side note, here's this gif I made one time.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by calamityCons » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:42 am

I really like that gif you made, and I agree with anyone who says that the carapaces are people who have more going on than just background nonsense. The insistence by current writers to portray the carapaces, consorts, and the sprites as disposable and replaceable people is really unnerving to me. Not only is this affecting the carapace characters, with the entire Four Kingdoms system being a blatant spit in the face of WV, and the revelation in the bonus updates that WV was given a figurehead title specifically to shut him up in what is possibly the biggest insult I have ever seen, it just. Eurgh, I do not understand why these characters who were given screentime and attention and whose development we see in the comic get shafted so fucking hard, meanwhile the side characters amongst the trolls get all the attention and love such as Meenah and the Dancestors. We're supposed to give a shit about things that the trolls are doing all the time, meanwhile the carapaces have been there since before the trolls were a glimmer in Hussie's eyes and they are forgotten and repeatedly trod upon in really saddening ways.

Thanks for helping rerail the thread, too, guys. :jadesob:
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by classpectanon » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:28 pm

interesting subpoint -- carapacian dialogue is all delivered through narration rather than actual dialogue. we know for a fact that dirk and calliope cannot alter dialogue, only narration, so does this extend to other narrators as well? are carapacians made to be vessels for the narrator du jour to cause shit to happen through?
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by BrobyDDark » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:32 pm

classpectanon wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:28 pm
interesting subpoint -- carapacian dialogue is all delivered through narration rather than actual dialogue. we know for a fact that dirk and calliope cannot alter dialogue, only narration, so does this extend to other narrators as well? are carapacians made to be vessels for the narrator du jour to cause shit to happen through?
I thought they could only narrate through those input machines, and the narration powers are just bullshit power versions of those machines?

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by calamityCons » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:34 pm

I don't know how much that would affect the carapaces because it's pretty ambiguous how much influence the narrators have on the characters with speaking lines to begin with. Also, the characters having the power to make commands/suggestions to the kids at the beginning of the story is also really cool and an underexamined part of the story now that you bring it up. Does this mean that carapaces are actually somewhat more relevant, because they are granted that kind of ability to steer the story even early on?

I'm hoping if the story goes in a more "autonomy is real and people who want to control everything don't win" direction, it will apply to the carapaces as well. It's a very tiny hope, and I am very jaded. But still. It's a nice thought.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by Mandy » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:34 pm

Some of them (okay, mostly Jack) outright ignore what the narration says they do. They're maybe not entirely independent of it, but I don't think they're just vessels either.

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by RoyalFiddle » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:35 pm

I dunno if I brought this up, but if I understand things correctly from the commentary, most carapaces are very shallow because they haven't been designated as priority carapaces. The exiles, Kings and Queens, and Jacks band of merry men have the personalities they do because they are sorta... deemed priorities? So I interpret that as most carapaces having a few lines of dialogue, while the ones flagged important get full personalities and character arcs

My point used to be more thought out than this I'm just pulling out of memory what I remember thinking about it
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by calamityCons » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:39 pm

From that perspective I still think the carapaces have more autonomy than "intended" by the commentary or the writers or Skaia or whatever. WV stops being a soldier, becomes a farmer, then creates a unified army of both Prospitian and Dersite soldiers to fight the ones who are causing shit to go down. If that isn't a character arc, and one given to a random-ass "nobody" carapace, I don't know what is. PM also has a really powerful character arc, and she's literally a mailman. These characters are important, not just to me, but like. To the actual narrative, in my opinion. I really miss the days when their actions mattered, their opinions were shown to us, their influence was significant and they weren't flanderized so hard into One Character Trait.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by foreverFlummoxed » Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:06 pm

calamityCons wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:39 pm
From that perspective I still think the carapaces have more autonomy than "intended" by the commentary or the writers or Skaia or whatever. WV stops being a soldier, becomes a farmer, then creates a unified army of both Prospitian and Dersite soldiers to fight the ones who are causing shit to go down. If that isn't a character arc, and one given to a random-ass "nobody" carapace, I don't know what is. PM also has a really powerful character arc, and she's literally a mailman. These characters are important, not just to me, but like. To the actual narrative, in my opinion. I really miss the days when their actions mattered, their opinions were shown to us, their influence was significant and they weren't flanderized so hard into One Character Trait.
It's probably similar to that of world-building in other works of fiction, as in good world building.

Sure you have your main characters doing their thing but that doesn't mean that they are the only characters in the story, i can't think of any example currently but something akin to "this old guy traveled to all the countries of he world and was there for some major events, he didn't do anything but he was there" and that can be interesting although not really the main focus.

Also i think i read in a hussie commentary (the old formspring archive i think?) that on the battlefield there is always a WV but whether he comes into play in the game or not is never a guarantee, so it's not that WV is just some random carapacian, he has an important role, just like AR just being a normal regulator but eventually becoming more through actions he takes is probably not random either, since every session is different not every carapacian will be used every time.
Last edited by foreverFlummoxed on Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by thorondraco » Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:24 am

foreverFlummoxed wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:06 pm
calamityCons wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:39 pm
From that perspective I still think the carapaces have more autonomy than "intended" by the commentary or the writers or Skaia or whatever. WV stops being a soldier, becomes a farmer, then creates a unified army of both Prospitian and Dersite soldiers to fight the ones who are causing shit to go down. If that isn't a character arc, and one given to a random-ass "nobody" carapace, I don't know what is. PM also has a really powerful character arc, and she's literally a mailman. These characters are important, not just to me, but like. To the actual narrative, in my opinion. I really miss the days when their actions mattered, their opinions were shown to us, their influence was significant and they weren't flanderized so hard into One Character Trait.
It's probably similar to that of world-building in other works of fiction, as in good world building.

Sure you have your main characters doing their thing but that doesn't mean that they are the only characters in the story, i can't think of any example currently but something akin to "this old guy traveled to all the countries of he world and was there for some major events, he didn't do anything but he was there" and that can be interesting although not really the main focus.

Also i think i read in a hussie commentary (the old formspring archive i think?) that on the battlefield there is always a WV but whether he comes into play in the game or not is never a guarantee, so it's not that WV is just some random carapacian, he has an important role, just like AR just being a normal regulator but eventually becoming through actions he takes is probably not random either, since every session is different not every carapacian will be used every time.
didn't even realize that WV was already rebelling against the norm by being a farmer. damn.

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by tentativeTumbleweed » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:50 am

calamityCons wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:39 pm
These characters are important, not just to me, but like. To the actual narrative, in my opinion.
Remembering how WV used the command window thing to repeatedly and quite literally shape the narrative in the earlier appearances of John (even leading up to him "doing the windy thing"), I'd say, that isn't even a question of opinion, and rather a fact.
And yes, PMs character arc was amazing, and it is worth to note that she actually even earned Jack Noir's respect by fulfilling her quest. The carapacians at least were fully fleshed-out characters at this point

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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by calamityCons » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:41 pm

thorondraco wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 12:24 am
didn't even realize that WV was already rebelling against the norm by being a farmer. damn.
It's a very subtle detail!

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In this picture we see a tattered and presumably discarded Derse soldier's uniform. This being repurposed as the clothing of a rudimentary scarecrow reveals a lot about WV to begin with:
  1. He had a Derse Kingdom soldier's uniform, combined with him being a pawn in the first place, it's very likely that
  2. This uniform used to be WV's own. That he is no longer using it feeds into the next detail:
  3. A Villein is a free person under the feudal system. Not a peasant, not a slave, but also not exactly a member of any other caste. He's very much an outsider, and that he's a WARWEARY villain we further conclude
  4. WV was once a soldier fighting for Derse's Kingdom. However, for one reason or another, he chooses to forego his assigned task and become a farmer. And when the very same kingdom he used to serve burns his entire livelihood down the drain, he gets pissed and amasses an army of other soldiers to defect like him.
It's a really inspiring little subplot, and one that I was engaging with a lot as a first time, serial reader. He's pretty cool, you know?
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by overThinker » Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:14 pm

calamityCons wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:41 pm
It's a really inspiring little subplot, and one that I was engaging with a lot as a first time, serial reader. He's pretty cool, you know?
there was definitely a lot of wasted potential for his exposition. it's reasonable to assume that he spends most of his introduction doing frivolous things in the lab because the ambiguously long time he spent as a vagabond wore away at his mind, which is definitely sad and yes i agree, it makes me wonder why he isn't given more serious screentime. his dream in act 5 act 2 seems much more interesting now that i'm thinking about this. poor guy.
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by foreverFlummoxed » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:01 pm

overThinker wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:14 pm
calamityCons wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:41 pm
It's a really inspiring little subplot, and one that I was engaging with a lot as a first time, serial reader. He's pretty cool, you know?
there was definitely a lot of wasted potential for his exposition. it's reasonable to assume that he spends most of his introduction doing frivolous things in the lab because the ambiguously long time he spent as a vagabond wore away at his mind, which is definitely sad and yes i agree, it makes me wonder why he isn't given more serious screentime. his dream in act 5 act 2 seems much more interesting now that i'm thinking about this. poor guy.
I believe it's possible that WV is the most tragic carapace story and probably the most tragic character from universe B1 next to Davesprite (honestly kind of a tie between them)
This section discusses Post-traumatic stress
Show
Looking at the facts, about his "mental wear," WV kind of has a bit of Post-traumatic stress due to being the sole survivor of a campaign that he started, which from the context of the dream it seems that WV blames himself for the death of his comrades. If he can finally find happiness in a lab of cans, I say long live the mayor.

(yes AR does kind of have the fear of bec from witnessing the horrid birth of that monstrosity, which does lead to his death, and he technically is a military man so traumatic stress would fit with his motif, as awful a thing that is to say, but WV's situation fits much better)
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Re: Carapaces Are People Too

Post by overThinker » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:33 pm

foreverFlummoxed wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:01 pm
overThinker wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:14 pm
calamityCons wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:41 pm
It's a really inspiring little subplot, and one that I was engaging with a lot as a first time, serial reader. He's pretty cool, you know?
there was definitely a lot of wasted potential for his exposition. it's reasonable to assume that he spends most of his introduction doing frivolous things in the lab because the ambiguously long time he spent as a vagabond wore away at his mind, which is definitely sad and yes i agree, it makes me wonder why he isn't given more serious screentime. his dream in act 5 act 2 seems much more interesting now that i'm thinking about this. poor guy.
I believe it's possible that WV is the most tragic carapace story and probably the most tragic character from universe B1 next to Davesprite (honestly kind of a tie between them)
This section discusses Post-traumatic stress
Show
Looking at the facts, about his "mental wear," WV kind of has a bit of Post-traumatic stress due to being the sole survivor of a campaign that he started, which from the context of the dream it seems that WV blames himself for the death of his comrades. If he can finally find happiness in a lab of cans, I say long live the mayor.

(yes AR does kind of have the fear of bec from witnessing the horrid birth of that monstrosity, which does lead to his death, and he technically is a military man so traumatic stress would fit with his motif, as awful a thing that is to say, but WV's situation fits much better)
which definitely provides insight into his fixation on the queen's ring as an exile. delivering the queen's ring was his last quest that bore any hope of "redeeming" wv from the deaths that he believed he caused, only for jack to exile him. the queen's ring was his life's last sense of meaning, so much so that he still remembered its importance after suppressing his other traumatic memories.

now i'm somewhat disappointed that wv ended up on the meteor with characters to whom he bore no relation. it would be heartwarming to see him and john reunite, after only knowing john as the Windy One.
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