Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by RoyalFiddle » Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:50 pm

MorganMustDie wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:49 pm
ay shoutout to Fiddle for completely changing my mind on this chapter with her analysis a few pages back that i can't be assed going back to quote
Hopefully I changed it for the better, otherwise, I'm gonna eat your shins. Also that's hilarious because while I don't dislike this chapter I still like it the least out of anything posted, even if it's not really out of left field
ROS3S 4R3 BL4CK
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1M BL1ND
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Fri Feb 28, 2020 11:43 pm

MorganMustDie wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 9:49 pm
ay shoutout to Fiddle for completely changing my mind on this chapter with her analysis a few pages back that i can't be assed going back to quote

It's weird because like, in the end I wind up enjoying every chapter we've got so far individually as like, a vignette of stuff that's going on, but I just don't enjoy HS^2 as a whole yet? Each individual chapter is really nicely crafted, with wonderful art, occasionally witty dialogue and some fun game mechanics, but when you attach them all together it just feels, messy. When you're switching around as often as we are there's never any time for stuff to actually happen, and so the story grinds to a bit of a standstill. When I saw that this chapter was the first time we'd get two chapters directly following on from one another I was excited! Maybe the story will progress! But instead of the Sburb stuff that Chapter 4 was leading up to, that was kinda thrown away for a weird shipping scene which came out of nowhere.

HS^2 is like an ancient tapestry depicting an incredible legendary tale where the images all look super amazing but they're out of order and sometimes there's a six pictures of two people talking and then only one picture of those same people fighting dragons or whatever
THye keep on jumping around the narrative rather than finishing or even half finishing a storyline so it definitely feels that way. I kinda criticize it a little because it defintiely throws people for a bit of a loop. have something continue until it feels like it could accomplish something, then switch to the other tales.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by Rob » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:16 pm

I have to admit I'm a huge sap for romance. Properly executed you can practically feel the tension between the two characters ramping up and the release of that tension, positive or negative, is a beautiful thing. HS1 is rife with this.

This was not a well executed romance. When Rose and Terezi started snogging I thought it was a joke! If you want to pair the two, sure, but you need to actually give me a reason to believe these two characters want each other through the way they act with and without them. This takes time and subtlety to achieve, neither of which are deployed here.

Anyway, I wasn't actively mad at the poor writing until Dirk showed up. Dirk's semi-antagonistic relationship to the reader is one of my favorite parts of the Epilogues because the authors of the Epilogues have something to say about the active relationship between author, fandom, and reader. A character speaking the thoughts of the author is trite but a character assuming the role of apparently-literal-author is interesting and fun. Here Dirk's role regresses to the latter, telling us directly: Don't like the direction we're taking? Too bad, you're stuck with us.

Well no man, I'm not. I can close the browser tab and not open it again. I'm not wantonly nostalgic for fetch modus jokes, I want to enjoy reading a well-paced boundary-pushing fan-interactive adventure and this isn't it.

:olliesouty: :olliesouty: :olliesouty:

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by calamityCons » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:43 pm

Rob out here PREACHING THE TRUTH :olliesouty: :olliesouty: :olliesouty: :olliesouty: :olliesouty:
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:47 pm

Rob wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:16 pm
I have to admit I'm a huge sap for romance. Properly executed you can practically feel the tension between the two characters ramping up and the release of that tension, positive or negative, is a beautiful thing. HS1 is rife with this.

This was not a well executed romance. When Rose and Terezi started snogging I thought it was a joke! If you want to pair the two, sure, but you need to actually give me a reason to believe these two characters want each other through the way they act with and without them. This takes time and subtlety to achieve, neither of which are deployed here.

Anyway, I wasn't actively mad at the poor writing until Dirk showed up. Dirk's semi-antagonistic relationship to the reader is one of my favorite parts of the Epilogues because the authors of the Epilogues have something to say about the active relationship between author, fandom, and reader. A character speaking the thoughts of the author is trite but a character assuming the role of apparently-literal-author is interesting and fun. Here Dirk's role regresses to the latter, telling us directly: Don't like the direction we're taking? Too bad, you're stuck with us.

Well no man, I'm not. I can close the browser tab and not open it again. I'm not wantonly nostalgic for fetch modus jokes, I want to enjoy reading a well-paced boundary-pushing fan-interactive adventure and this isn't it.

:olliesouty: :olliesouty: :olliesouty:
I am pretty sure the joke was him interrupting the shipping and knowing it would anger a few peeps doing so, basically interrupting the emotional moment to 'get things back on track'.
And it seems to fit with dirk's behavior. Something i noticed in the epilogues where he was acting like a transphobe, is that the entire time he was obviously crafting a Nonbinary reveal for Calliope. Basically he had crafted a scene for Calliope here. He didn't start acting like an ass until Roxy's reveal. It makes me belive that if he acted transphobic to mask the fact that the reveal made him extremely upset. Roxy is his oldest friend yet they never revealed this confusion about themselves. Also he can't control Roxy. And now roxy straight up railroaded his reveal for Calliope.

I think the same happened here. The whole thing ALSO came out of nowhere for him, it made him uncomfortable, and he started being a bit of an ass to mask that it made him uncomfortable. Could be he has really started thinking of Rose as his daughter. And his daughter was basically fucking their coworker in the back seat when he wasn't looking.

also literally that is the point of what dirk was saying. We CAN leave and he is mocking the people who stay despite their misgivings. specifically the peeps who only read it for something to complain about.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by Rob » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:34 pm

thorondraco wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:47 pm
I am pretty sure the joke was him interrupting the shipping and knowing it would anger a few peeps doing so, basically interrupting the emotional moment to 'get things back on track'.
And it seems to fit with dirk's behavior. Something i noticed in the epilogues where he was acting like a transphobe, is that the entire time he was obviously crafting a Nonbinary reveal for Calliope. Basically he had crafted a scene for Calliope here. He didn't start acting like an ass until Roxy's reveal. It makes me belive that if he acted transphobic to mask the fact that the reveal made him extremely upset. Roxy is his oldest friend yet they never revealed this confusion about themselves. Also he can't control Roxy. And now roxy straight up railroaded his reveal for Calliope.

I think the same happened here. The whole thing ALSO came out of nowhere for him, it made him uncomfortable, and he started being a bit of an ass to mask that it made him uncomfortable. Could be he has really started thinking of Rose as his daughter. And his daughter was basically fucking their coworker in the back seat when he wasn't looking.

also literally that is the point of what dirk was saying. We CAN leave and he is mocking the people who stay despite their misgivings. specifically the peeps who only read it for something to complain about.
So, Dirk represents two things in Homestuck during/after the Epilogues: the character in Homestuck 1 and The Author Of The Work You Are Reading (primarily Andrew Hussie but clearly the the other writers and fandom). It seems like you're more talking about how Dirk the Character talks. But, we are currently specifically reading A Work That Dirk Is Writing, so when Dirk breaks the fourth wall and addresses us in this manner it can be safely assumed that what I am reading is a statement by the author(s) themselves. What that statement says is: we don't care about your opinions, we're doing it this way.

To be very clear here: that's cool by me dudes! I'm not beefing here. This is your work and I 100% respect the stance that you want to make exactly what you want to make. That's how I feel about my own work.

However, when the fandom criticizes aesthetic aspects of a work, they are not necessarily trying to prevent you from doing what you want to do, they're trying to help you make it better. HS1 is proof proper that feeding on the energies of your fans works (and maybe at the end also that sometimes it doesn't.)

Anyway, I am going to stop reading but want to end on a positive note. I'm working on my own weird interactive shit and that's only because of Hussie's line here: "Wherever the most conscientious and invested members of fandom want to drive this universe, as well as the standards by which we engage with media in general, that will be the direction I follow." I'll take that challenge dude.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:26 am

Rob wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:34 pm
thorondraco wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:47 pm
I am pretty sure the joke was him interrupting the shipping and knowing it would anger a few peeps doing so, basically interrupting the emotional moment to 'get things back on track'.
And it seems to fit with dirk's behavior. Something i noticed in the epilogues where he was acting like a transphobe, is that the entire time he was obviously crafting a Nonbinary reveal for Calliope. Basically he had crafted a scene for Calliope here. He didn't start acting like an ass until Roxy's reveal. It makes me belive that if he acted transphobic to mask the fact that the reveal made him extremely upset. Roxy is his oldest friend yet they never revealed this confusion about themselves. Also he can't control Roxy. And now roxy straight up railroaded his reveal for Calliope.

I think the same happened here. The whole thing ALSO came out of nowhere for him, it made him uncomfortable, and he started being a bit of an ass to mask that it made him uncomfortable. Could be he has really started thinking of Rose as his daughter. And his daughter was basically fucking their coworker in the back seat when he wasn't looking.

also literally that is the point of what dirk was saying. We CAN leave and he is mocking the people who stay despite their misgivings. specifically the peeps who only read it for something to complain about.
So, Dirk represents two things in Homestuck during/after the Epilogues: the character in Homestuck 1 and The Author Of The Work You Are Reading (primarily Andrew Hussie but clearly the the other writers and fandom). It seems like you're more talking about how Dirk the Character talks. But, we are currently specifically reading A Work That Dirk Is Writing, so when Dirk breaks the fourth wall and addresses us in this manner it can be safely assumed that what I am reading is a statement by the author(s) themselves. What that statement says is: we don't care about your opinions, we're doing it this way.

To be very clear here: that's cool by me dudes! I'm not beefing here. This is your work and I 100% respect the stance that you want to make exactly what you want to make. That's how I feel about my own work.

However, when the fandom criticizes aesthetic aspects of a work, they are not necessarily trying to prevent you from doing what you want to do, they're trying to help you make it better. HS1 is proof proper that feeding on the energies of your fans works (and maybe at the end also that sometimes it doesn't.)

Anyway, I am going to stop reading but want to end on a positive note. I'm working on my own weird interactive shit and that's only because of Hussie's line here: "Wherever the most conscientious and invested members of fandom want to drive this universe, as well as the standards by which we engage with media in general, that will be the direction I follow." I'll take that challenge dude.
Honestly, i don't think that is the case at all. OR at the very least Dirk is acting as an exaggeration of the statement of 'we know peopl criticze it but we will continue to work on it and do our best'. Aysha and many others have stated that people shouldn't continue consuming a piece of media if they don't like it and often in reference to the epilogues and homestuck^2. So obviously, at the very least, this isn't Aysha's opinion of people.

What Dirk himself is saying is what the character is saying rather than the writers. And the writers would not benefit from actually being actually antagonistic towards their audience. Even if one or two of them had this weird and actual beef with us, they are kinda hired to do this. And i highly doubt ALL of the writers involved on this project have a beef boner towards the fandom. They would get vetoed.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by Khiara » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:32 pm

Speaking of "Dirk as the author's representative" speculations...

Have you guys seen the lead writer's latest tweets about "HS characters are fake. They're like pawns, I can control them whatever I want, and I don't give a f**k if people think my story is good or not"?
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by calamityCons » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:39 pm

Khiara wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:32 pm
Speaking of "Dirk as the author's representative" speculations...

Have you guys seen the lead writer's latest tweets about "HS characters are fake. They're like pawns, I can control them whatever I want, and I don't give a f**k if people think my story is good or not"?
I have not seen them, but if this is the kind of thing these writers are putting out on twitter then perhaps we should not be speaking about it here due to Rule 6a.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:31 pm

Really, only Kate has said this, and I don't even know if she counts at this point. She has said so much uncontroversially stupid stuff that I don't feel like any shit that comes out of her mouth is worth addressing, besides the obligated "Oh yes, look at that, Kate is starting another shitstorm. In other news, the sky is blue."
Honestly, I don't know exactly where the line between beefing and criticism is drawn, but I want to make clear, my problem lies not with ms. Mitchell directly, and more with how passive the team has been in dealing with her bullshit. Like, there should definitely be repercussions for this. Caring this little about your audience as a creator is downright despicable, and this burden doesn't fall solely on ms. Mitchell: It's just as much up to the rest of the team to say that what she is doing is wrong, otherwise it's implicit confirmation that what she is saying reflects their views: I.e. They're shooting themselves in the foot by letting shit like this come out. Even if they do think it behind closed doors, it's never something you should directly say to your fans.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by BrobyDDark » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:32 pm

Khiara wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:32 pm
Speaking of "Dirk as the author's representative" speculations...

Have you guys seen the lead writer's latest tweets about "HS characters are fake. They're like pawns, I can control them whatever I want, and I don't give a f**k if people think my story is good or not"?
This is like something Hussie would say in-comic before getting assaulted by Slick or Vriska. Or what Caliborn would say while acting all villain-y.

What the hell.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by Khiara » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:41 pm

ThePungeonMaster wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:31 pm
Honestly, I don't know exactly where the line between beefing and criticism is drawn, but I want to make clear, my problem lies not with ms. Mitchell directly, and more with how passive the team has been in dealing with her bullshit. Like, there should definitely be repercussions for this. Caring this little about your audience as a creator is downright despicable, and this burden doesn't fall solely on ms. Mitchell: It's just as much up to the rest of the team to say that what she is doing is wrong, otherwise it's implicit confirmation that what she is saying reflects their views: I.e. They're shooting themselves in the foot by letting shit like this come out. Even if they do think it behind closed doors, it's never something you should directly say to your fans.
This. So much this.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:58 am

ThePungeonMaster wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:31 pm
Really, only Kate has said this, and I don't even know if she counts at this point. She has said so much uncontroversially stupid stuff that I don't feel like any shit that comes out of her mouth is worth addressing, besides the obligated "Oh yes, look at that, Kate is starting another shitstorm. In other news, the sky is blue."
Honestly, I don't know exactly where the line between beefing and criticism is drawn, but I want to make clear, my problem lies not with ms. Mitchell directly, and more with how passive the team has been in dealing with her bullshit. Like, there should definitely be repercussions for this. Caring this little about your audience as a creator is downright despicable, and this burden doesn't fall solely on ms. Mitchell: It's just as much up to the rest of the team to say that what she is doing is wrong, otherwise it's implicit confirmation that what she is saying reflects their views: I.e. They're shooting themselves in the foot by letting shit like this come out. Even if they do think it behind closed doors, it's never something you should directly say to your fans.
Put simply Hussie isn't going to fire someone for being an asshole unless its gonna negatively impact the comic. Mostly if they start applying their own bullshit to the comic and try to force shit he doesn't want into the comic, like personal beefs. Fortunately whatever the personal feelings of any individual of Whatpumpkin, they are working as a unit and not as an individual. Hussie has the last say in the end and everyone else, while having creative freedom, needs to work within his guidelines and world. STatement like that are basically empty blathering because they can't do anything unless Hussie wants it too. And i doubt that Hussie in any way agrees with the sentiments. I really don't know the motivation for this behavior. ATtention seeking? Feeling defensive?
It doesn't really seem to be working though, even the comments themselves have gotten little support or notice. I think that is what the other guys in whatpumpkin are doing. Not encouraging to disregarding the behavior, simply ignoring it.

Its largely because of six or so other guys that i have confidence, along with Hussie. Cause its one person and while 'officiall' the head of the project the does not mean supreme overlord nor even able to control the direction as they see fit. They just write some of it and other people write the rest. Its a counsel of writers and just cause one of the counsel members for some reason wants to tweet out bullshit, it does not mean the rest of the counsel is beholden. in fact it doesn't even mean that the feelings of that counsel member is in fact impacting the story itself.
And even if Kate is spouting nonsense it doesn't mean that she deserves to be fired or even publicly punished cause... Its a dangerous mindset. Course i simply believe that unless a belief or statement is directly affecting something, it should be ignored at best. And considering she hasn't been fired it means that its not impacting the story at this time... Kate is a professional writer. Even if her demeanor online is not, it doesn't mean she is going to write to offend and compromise the project she is working on.

So i feel like that even though begones being bygones is too much to ask for, we shouldn't take what the whatpumpkin guys said seriously, especially if its only one individual. Unless we see some strange shift in tone and quality in Homestuck^2 or other projects. Cause then we will know that someone is brute forcing their opinions over everyone else's and railroading the creative process. Until then, if it even ever happens, let us just see how it all goes and not taking ravings seriously.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:11 am

ThePungeonMaster wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:31 pm
Really, only Kate has said this, and I don't even know if she counts at this point. She has said so much uncontroversially stupid stuff that I don't feel like any shit that comes out of her mouth is worth addressing, besides the obligated "Oh yes, look at that, Kate is starting another shitstorm. In other news, the sky is blue."
Honestly, I don't know exactly where the line between beefing and criticism is drawn, but I want to make clear, my problem lies not with ms. Mitchell directly, and more with how passive the team has been in dealing with her bullshit. Like, there should definitely be repercussions for this. Caring this little about your audience as a creator is downright despicable, and this burden doesn't fall solely on ms. Mitchell: It's just as much up to the rest of the team to say that what she is doing is wrong, otherwise it's implicit confirmation that what she is saying reflects their views: I.e. They're shooting themselves in the foot by letting shit like this come out. Even if they do think it behind closed doors, it's never something you should directly say to your fans.
Also no them ignoring what she is doing is not, in fact, saying it reflects their views at all. That is faulty logic. Accusation by association. The only time any of them has said anything resembling support to something she has said is during the Reddit controversy, and they were like, not attacking people.
Hell if it was just kate, i imagine the whole thing would blown over, but the rest of the whatpumpkin staff and other creators of fanworks were like 'wtf'. Kate's word is not law nor are her opinions the same as everyone else's.

Hell aysha already said that no one is gonna get fired for dumb opinions nor do the opinions reflect everyone on whatpumpkin's staff.. and i think this was during one of the prior Kate centered controversies. So what we need her to repost that every time Kate acts immaturely?

Just cause one guy is a racist or a pedophile doesn't meant everyone that person ever shared physical space with is also a racist or pedophile. This cancel culture shit isn't healthy and i am against people being punished, threatened, or fired for a dumb opinion. you know what that does? It encourages the bad opinions! It makes them worse and justifies their viewpoints further. Racist guy gets fired for being racist? It just convinces him further how bad other races are and makes him think they are taking everything over.

Kate saying shit does not mean Aysha, Lalo hunt, Xamag and the others agree in any capacity, even if they don't publicly and metaphorically/literally flog her every time she says something.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by Khiara » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:36 am

thorondraco wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:11 am
Kate saying shit does not mean Aysha, Lalo hunt, Xamag and the others agree in any capacity, even if they don't publicly and metaphorically/literally flog her every time she says something.
I agree that her words don't represent the whole team.
But do you really think her states don't have any impact on the story whatsoever? I mean... the abrupt trans changes? Dirk's bitching on the readers?

Sorry, but me and some of the fans can't just "let bygone be bygone" about her notorious ways to treat the audience of her own big project. Those are not just dumb opinions when they started to throw flames on the others. Those are dangerous, harmful, insulting opinions.

I might be exaggerating here, but I still agree that Hussie and/or the other WP member should do something about her, or she will continue to throw another flame and make a brand new chaos.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:04 am

Really, it doesn't matter if what Kate says represents the teams views or not, because if they do nothing to denounce what Kate has done, fans will inevitably get the impression that that is what the entire writing team believes, and for good reason: Like I said, if they don't condemn Kate's actions, that in and of itself is implicit confirmation that what she is doing is alright and accepted by the staff.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:03 pm

Khiara wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:36 am
thorondraco wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:11 am
Kate saying shit does not mean Aysha, Lalo hunt, Xamag and the others agree in any capacity, even if they don't publicly and metaphorically/literally flog her every time she says something.
I agree that her words don't represent the whole team.
But do you really think her states don't have any impact on the story whatsoever? I mean... the abrupt trans changes? Dirk's bitching on the readers?

Sorry, but me and some of the fans can't just "let bygone be bygone" about her notorious ways to treat the audience of her own big project. Those are not just dumb opinions when they started to throw flames on the others. Those are dangerous, harmful, insulting opinions.

I might be exaggerating here, but I still agree that Hussie and/or the other WP member should do something about her, or she will continue to throw another flame and make a brand new chaos.
The thing is, Dirk was bitching on the reader before Kate put herself in the crosshairs of the fandom with her trolling statements. Aka would have developed a beef with people. So him bitching has nothing to do with Kate.

also i litreally said that letting bygones be bygones was too much to ask for. Kate is attention seeking, so ignore the attention seeking. If she doesn't get a response then her words remain empty. And if she tries to do something in story, then she'll get fired for it. And that is even if she would risk her job doing that.

and so far there has only been one adrupt trans change with Roxy. Also Kate isn't the only transgender person on the team and its more than likely something Hussie agreed to... If that reddit controversy had anything to show is that Hussie is still around. Hell pesterquest helped put a subtle nuance to it without being the primary focus.

Unless Kate's bullshit does more than just piss off some fans, like suddenly half the patreon left because of her statements, they are just gonna ignore her. And honestly, we should ignore her too unless we have actual signs that she is fucking over the story to spite us. And that is even IF she can as just one writer amongst 7.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by luigi » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:43 pm

So wait we are allowed to bitch out Kate? Cause I got a formal warning for saying THANKS KATE but y'all are posting entire essays on her and it's all fine.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by foreverFlummoxed » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:58 pm

luigi wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:43 pm
So wait we are allowed to bitch out Kate? Cause I got a formal warning for saying THANKS KATE but y'all are posting entire essays on her and it's all fine.
While this topic does walk a very dangerous line, there is a difference between "I'm worried about what certain actions could possibly lead to" and "this person is bad and i won't explain why i think so"

the first example CAN be constructive, if used properly, but the second is what the rule is put in place to avoid.

knowing the difference between constructive and destructive opinions is very important.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by classpectanon » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:04 pm

Mod Voice: I am going to be perfectly honest, the only reason I haven't said anything is because I haven't read this thread and nobody has given me any reports, but this is not particularly acceptable behavior. No beefing means no beefing. If you want to say inflammatory things about members of the WP team, go do it in a private discord or PMs somewhere.

I'm putting a lid on any further discussion of Kate in this thread, please.
I'm more easily reached at ceeps#9999 on Discord. I will respond to reports faster there because PHPBB's notification system is borked and doesn't email me when you report things.

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