Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by stark » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:41 pm

Generalrabogolfo wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:17 pm
BrobyDDark wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:09 pm
I think this is the worst update yet.

Last update was insufferable because of too much Dirk. Now we barely get any Dirk, but Rosebot continues the Strilonde tradition of insufferably talking about the fucking narrative, and how much SBURB is "unfeeling" and "cold."

"There were barely any panels this time. This isn't MY Homestuck" god shut up you orange prick.
why are they making this? acknowledging that you are doing something bad yet not doing anything to stop doing something bad makes it still bad
they don't think it's bad, they're parodying the fans that think it is - owning the morons who liked the early acts, that followed homestuck for the weird plot shit, meta-mechanics, the ones who liked....... panels?
they did this last update too but with a little more subtlety (Go ahead and close the fucking book then. wtf)

EDIT: uh i guess i should have mentioned in this UPDATE thread that i thought parts of this update were pretty good, might've been the best so far if i ignore the length of it. i liked the argument between rose and terezi, had some good lines in there, and its rare in fictional arguments for both parties to have sound reasoning behind them - i.e. it wasn't either rose or terezi dominating the other, they could both be seen as "right". shame that it was sandwiched in between more meta wank, but they do that nearly every chapter to the point where i debate even bringing it up, its basically a forgone conclusion now. it's a waste of time to say, something you tack on at the end maybe ("...oh, and they creamed themselves about canon again").
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by pfeffer-29 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:56 pm

I liked the argument between Terezi and Rose. It was compelling to read.

But where in Paradox Space did Roserezi come from???

What was the point of Rose and Terezi having and implied blackrom snog? Are the writers trying to dismantle Rosemary because it was a steady relationship and relationship drama creates dramatic tension? Are they destroying the legitimacy of Rosemary, or are they just giving Rose a fling for the drama and still letting her have feelings for Kanaya? Was this someone's rarepair and they just really really wanted to have the satisfaction of seeing their ship in canon material? I can't say! But if the writers keep brushing aside Rosemary as if it didn't end suddenly and without closure, they're gonna make about half the fandom angry.

Also, Dirk is an insufferable strawman as always:

"...We were passing the Bechdel test and advancing none of the plot. There were hardly any panels. That's not my Homestuck. You people are here for logic. Systems. Weird plot shit. Lore. Not this."

and

"Passing judgement on my robotic ecto-daughter smashing the damn shipping grid to pieces. Really, Rose? Really?"

With the first quote, it is evident that the writers are under the impression that Acts 1-5 fans care solely about the game mechanics and time shenanigans, not compelling character interactions, and that this chapter was a sufficient example of the latter. Dirk is here to shift the focus abruptly from Rose and Terezi's romance, breaking the reader's immersion, because surely this is what the old guard wanted, isn't it? They shouldn't complain about character arcs when their idea of Homestuck is jarring and hard to digest. (It also, bizarrely, implies that "Dirk's Homestuck" didn't pass the Bechdel test. Perhaps Act 5 simply doesn't exist.)

And with the second, I feel confident in inferring that the authors assume most Acts 1-5 fans were religious followers of Karkat's Shipping Grid, which if you've forgotten looked like this:

Rose+John
Dave+Jade

Because of course, these ships are both straight, and if you ship them you must want to Make Homestuck Straight Again, right? Because Homestuck was definitely 100% heterosexual before Act 6, and there totally weren't any characters who could be interpreted as non-straight or were openly bisexual.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by BrobyDDark » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:07 pm

It kinda feels like they're intentionally trying to split the base, or anger people who actually enjoyed pre-Epilogues Homestuck, or especially people who enjoyed Acts 1-5. Maybe they don't wanna do that, though. I dunno. I'm not in their heads.

But its starting to really irk me how they're generalizing large parts of Homestuck's fanbase.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:51 pm

BrobyDDark wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:07 pm
It kinda feels like they're intentionally trying to split the base, or anger people who actually enjoyed pre-Epilogues Homestuck, or especially people who enjoyed Acts 1-5. Maybe they don't wanna do that, though. I dunno. I'm not in their heads.

But its starting to really irk me how they're generalizing large parts of Homestuck's fanbase.
It's really strange: The crew, holistically, is comprised of enough different people from different sections of the fandom that even if someone on the team hated acts 1-5, there would probably be enough people who opposed it to make the viewpoint irrelevant, and make the writing more neutral. I doubt that the majority of the staff actually hates acts 1-5, and that they actually think they are making an appeal to people who like acts 1-5, but they're going about it with an innate misunderstanding of how to do it.
I mean, shit, I even prefer act 6, but what they're doing gets under my skin, because of how oblivious they are to what the fans actually want.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by RoyalFiddle » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:17 pm

I just wanna say, and this is frankly a cop out, but Rose and Terezi did spend 3 years on a ship together with Dirk as the only other companion, which like, probably doesn't help the burgeoning hatemance
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:22 am

pfeffer-29 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 8:56 pm
I liked the argument between Terezi and Rose. It was compelling to read.

But where in Paradox Space did Roserezi come from???

What was the point of Rose and Terezi having and implied blackrom snog? Are the writers trying to dismantle Rosemary because it was a steady relationship and relationship drama creates dramatic tension? Are they destroying the legitimacy of Rosemary, or are they just giving Rose a fling for the drama and still letting her have feelings for Kanaya? Was this someone's rarepair and they just really really wanted to have the satisfaction of seeing their ship in canon material? I can't say! But if the writers keep brushing aside Rosemary as if it didn't end suddenly and without closure, they're gonna make about half the fandom angry.

Also, Dirk is an insufferable strawman as always:

"...We were passing the Bechdel test and advancing none of the plot. There were hardly any panels. That's not my Homestuck. You people are here for logic. Systems. Weird plot shit. Lore. Not this."

and

"Passing judgement on my robotic ecto-daughter smashing the damn shipping grid to pieces. Really, Rose? Really?"

With the first quote, it is evident that the writers are under the impression that Acts 1-5 fans care solely about the game mechanics and time shenanigans, not compelling character interactions, and that this chapter was a sufficient example of the latter. Dirk is here to shift the focus abruptly from Rose and Terezi's romance, breaking the reader's immersion, because surely this is what the old guard wanted, isn't it? They shouldn't complain about character arcs when their idea of Homestuck is jarring and hard to digest. (It also, bizarrely, implies that "Dirk's Homestuck" didn't pass the Bechdel test. Perhaps Act 5 simply doesn't exist.)

And with the second, I feel confident in inferring that the authors assume most Acts 1-5 fans were religious followers of Karkat's Shipping Grid, which if you've forgotten looked like this:

Rose+John
Dave+Jade

Because of course, these ships are both straight, and if you ship them you must want to Make Homestuck Straight Again, right? Because Homestuck was definitely 100% heterosexual before Act 6, and there totally weren't any characters who could be interpreted as non-straight or were openly bisexual.
Okay most of what you are critiquing here is meant to be taken as a joke here.
The shipping grid breaking, a joke by Dirk.
The old guard joks in general and Dirk being a strawman is, in itself, a Joke. Dirk is pulling some bullshit saying its 'gonna be just like the old days' to begin with. He is aware of the audience and has this level of antagonism towards them.

Course the question is if you find it humorous and that is a fair assessment. I find it hilarious myself. But more so i am wondering the source of his anger.

Also Dirk has a tendency to get a bit vulgar or pissy whenever something happens that makes him uncomfortable and make excuses there after to cover up that he was made uncomfortable. He might have been uncomfortable of the blatant hatesex scene about to happen and was making an excuse about 'forwarding the plot' to interrupt his ecto daughter fucking a coworker in the wreck fo the ship.

Dirk would prefer to be a strawman but be seen as vulnerable.

But yea... its not literally serious. Though feeling attacked i think is the point. This isn't the 'writers' doing it, its the 'character' doing it. The character dirk is saying these things. He is aware of us and has a axe to grind with us too, but needs us as well.I highly doubt the writers are actually antagonistic towards the fans. Yea some of them are kinda hair trigger peeps but that doesn't mean they are gonna put actual negative 'fuck you fans' stuff into the comic. I doubt hussie would let them, and we know Hussie is sitll lurking out there.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:31 am

ThePungeonMaster wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:51 pm
BrobyDDark wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:07 pm
It kinda feels like they're intentionally trying to split the base, or anger people who actually enjoyed pre-Epilogues Homestuck, or especially people who enjoyed Acts 1-5. Maybe they don't wanna do that, though. I dunno. I'm not in their heads.

But its starting to really irk me how they're generalizing large parts of Homestuck's fanbase.
It's really strange: The crew, holistically, is comprised of enough different people from different sections of the fandom that even if someone on the team hated acts 1-5, there would probably be enough people who opposed it to make the viewpoint irrelevant, and make the writing more neutral. I doubt that the majority of the staff actually hates acts 1-5, and that they actually think they are making an appeal to people who like acts 1-5, but they're going about it with an innate misunderstanding of how to do it.
I mean, shit, I even prefer act 6, but what they're doing gets under my skin, because of how oblivious they are to what the fans actually want.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
I think that Dirk continuous sayings of 'it will be like the comic' is him being ironic and passive aggressive. We all know this isn't the same as homestuck. The writers obviously know this too. Dirk saying these things is the Character, not the writers, saying these things. And Dirk we can clearly tell has an axe to grind with the readers, as if he is frustrated that he has to show us anything.

Maybe that is it actually. Dirk knows that we Readers are a major component in how paradox space works. Something about us reading and watching shit does something. And Dirk hates being beholden to our capricious wants and needs. And is not in any way shy of being outright aggressive about it when he can. Though he seems able to keep that passive aggression down to a minimum.

Maybe there is some commentary towards the relationship of fans and artists there but We shouldn't be taking what Dirk says as direct word of mouth from the actual Authors. This is dirk being a bitch, not the writers.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by Shitpost Lizard » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:53 am

thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:22 am

Okay most of what you are critiquing here is meant to be taken as a joke here.
The shipping grid breaking, a joke by Dirk.
The old guard joks in general and Dirk being a strawman is, in itself, a Joke. Dirk is pulling some bullshit saying its 'gonna be just like the old days' to begin with. He is aware of the audience and has this level of antagonism towards them.

Course the question is if you find it humorous and that is a fair assessment. I find it hilarious myself. But more so i am wondering the source of his anger.

Also Dirk has a tendency to get a bit vulgar or pissy whenever something happens that makes him uncomfortable and make excuses there after to cover up that he was made uncomfortable. He might have been uncomfortable of the blatant hatesex scene about to happen and was making an excuse about 'forwarding the plot' to interrupt his ecto daughter fucking a coworker in the wreck fo the ship.

Dirk would prefer to be a strawman but be seen as vulnerable.

But yea... its not literally serious. Though feeling attacked i think is the point. This isn't the 'writers' doing it, its the 'character' doing it. The character dirk is saying these things. He is aware of us and has a axe to grind with us too, but needs us as well.I highly doubt the writers are actually antagonistic towards the fans. Yea some of them are kinda hair trigger peeps but that doesn't mean they are gonna put actual negative 'fuck you fans' stuff into the comic. I doubt hussie would let them, and we know Hussie is sitll lurking out there.
There's actually proof out there that the antagonism does legitimately exist. Like sure, sniping at your audience is "haha oh you guys" fun and jokes and shit, but not when it happens in damn near every single update, and not when you have background knowledge to back the idea that it's not entirely a joke.

But I'm not gonna go in-depth on that, because forum rules about discussing the staff and shit.

Whether it's in jest or a legitimate ocean's worth of salt isn't the main issue though, at least to me.
It's that it's incessant.
Like yeah, Hussie in-universe was antagonistic to the audience, and Caliborn and Calliope themselves were both parodies of different parts of the fanbase, but it wasn't just repeatedly beaten over our heads in every single update with the wordcount of a course thesis. Like they need to chillax on that shit.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by RoyalFiddle » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:00 am

thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:22 am

Course the question is if you find it humorous and that is a fair assessment. I find it hilarious myself. But more so i am wondering the source of his anger.

Also Dirk has a tendency to get a bit vulgar or pissy whenever something happens that makes him uncomfortable and make excuses there after to cover up that he was made uncomfortable. He might have been uncomfortable of the blatant hatesex scene about to happen and was making an excuse about 'forwarding the plot' to interrupt his ecto daughter fucking a coworker in the wreck fo the ship.
I don't disagree with this assertion but I'm wondering if he's not at least a little bit on edge the entire time he's on screen. I mean, knowing you are nothing more than a story and that someone can just write you in a certain way would make me uncomfortable, and I think it leads credence to my suspicion that he's trying to destroy the narrative altogether, while Rose is trying to keep it alive
ROS3S 4R3 BL4CK
V1OL3TS 4R3 BL4CK
3V3RYTH1NG 1S BL4CK
1M BL1ND
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:19 am

Shitpost Lizard wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:53 am
thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:22 am

Okay most of what you are critiquing here is meant to be taken as a joke here.
The shipping grid breaking, a joke by Dirk.
The old guard joks in general and Dirk being a strawman is, in itself, a Joke. Dirk is pulling some bullshit saying its 'gonna be just like the old days' to begin with. He is aware of the audience and has this level of antagonism towards them.

Course the question is if you find it humorous and that is a fair assessment. I find it hilarious myself. But more so i am wondering the source of his anger.

Also Dirk has a tendency to get a bit vulgar or pissy whenever something happens that makes him uncomfortable and make excuses there after to cover up that he was made uncomfortable. He might have been uncomfortable of the blatant hatesex scene about to happen and was making an excuse about 'forwarding the plot' to interrupt his ecto daughter fucking a coworker in the wreck fo the ship.

Dirk would prefer to be a strawman but be seen as vulnerable.

But yea... its not literally serious. Though feeling attacked i think is the point. This isn't the 'writers' doing it, its the 'character' doing it. The character dirk is saying these things. He is aware of us and has a axe to grind with us too, but needs us as well.I highly doubt the writers are actually antagonistic towards the fans. Yea some of them are kinda hair trigger peeps but that doesn't mean they are gonna put actual negative 'fuck you fans' stuff into the comic. I doubt hussie would let them, and we know Hussie is sitll lurking out there.
There's actually proof out there that the antagonism does legitimately exist. Like sure, sniping at your audience is "haha oh you guys" fun and jokes and shit, but not when it happens in damn near every single update, and not when you have background knowledge to back the idea that it's not entirely a joke.

But I'm not gonna go in-depth on that, because forum rules about discussing the staff and shit.

Whether it's in jest or a legitimate ocean's worth of salt isn't the main issue though, at least to me.
It's that it's incessant.
Like yeah, Hussie in-universe was antagonistic to the audience, and Caliborn and Calliope themselves were both parodies of different parts of the fanbase, but it wasn't just repeatedly beaten over our heads in every single update with the wordcount of a course thesis. Like they need to chillax on that shit.
I would there is far more miscommunication than anyone on the Whatpumpkin team having a legit beef. At that point your are dealing with conspiracies. I can imagine that one might be that way but they wouldn't be able to put it into the series. And Hussie wouldn't let them.
But i will agree that with Dirk it happen a biiit to often. Though i would argue against it being in every update, only the times when Dirk is directly talking to us and that has been... eh a bit much. We have had a total of 6 updates altogether and he has so far spoken directly to us in 3 of them.

It does feel like its longer than that though.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:28 am

RoyalFiddle wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 1:00 am
thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:22 am

Course the question is if you find it humorous and that is a fair assessment. I find it hilarious myself. But more so i am wondering the source of his anger.

Also Dirk has a tendency to get a bit vulgar or pissy whenever something happens that makes him uncomfortable and make excuses there after to cover up that he was made uncomfortable. He might have been uncomfortable of the blatant hatesex scene about to happen and was making an excuse about 'forwarding the plot' to interrupt his ecto daughter fucking a coworker in the wreck fo the ship.
I don't disagree with this assertion but I'm wondering if he's not at least a little bit on edge the entire time he's on screen. I mean, knowing you are nothing more than a story and that someone can just write you in a certain way would make me uncomfortable, and I think it leads credence to my suspicion that he's trying to destroy the narrative altogether, while Rose is trying to keep it alive
Or at least is trying to change something or other doing this. John's retcon had far reachign consequences it seems to me. Destroy i don't think so. There would be easier ways to do that. But he has a grander plan than a sburb session.

Also i wouldn't say he would be 'nothing more than a story'. The meta elements are in universe elements too. And in universe he and Calliope are the ones making the stories... And Whomever is showing us the bonus updates. But yea he knows that he is a character and is rebelling against that, and is frustrated to be beholden to us more than likely.. Or whatever equivalent of us exists as an in universe construct?
Homestuck gets confusing.

But yea I truly think that Dirk's statements and arrogance is more his character and not the writers themselves directly attacking us. But i do think that there is a lot of miscommunication here that makes people think they are. I think that people an expecting more communication from the peeps working on homestuck now cause they were peeps who were fans of homestuck, parts of the community. That and them not being trusted to deal with Hussie's stuff. Though i am pretty sure Hussie, while not directly writing, is sitll pretty involved.

Though to be fair some of the behavior of 'certain someones' kinda makes people more worried about it. Its very very complicated. Especially as Dirk is so actively antagonstic. Though he was antagonistic like this in the epilogues, before we had anything more than an inkling promise of a sequel.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by classpectanon » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:33 am

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by stark » Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:51 pm

@cpa i think rule 6A is good for keeping the forums a kind of neutral ground for the fandom, but where is the line drawn between ascribing the author's intent and reading into the obvious subtext? the above quotes are pretty clearly meant to be read as snipes at certain sects of the audience and i think that if the writers present views negatively like that it should be open to discussion, especially due to how meta the comic demands discussion around it be.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:27 pm

stark wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:51 pm
@cpa i think rule 6A is good for keeping the forums a kind of neutral ground for the fandom, but where is the line drawn between ascribing the author's intent and reading into the obvious subtext? the above quotes are pretty clearly meant to be read as snipes at certain sects of the audience and i think that if the writers present views negatively like that it should be open to discussion, especially due to how meta the comic demands discussion around it be.
Well the question is if its the Character of Dirk doing it or if it is meant to be taken as the writers doing it. I think its pretty clear that it is Dirk who is doing it here rather than Dirk being the mouth piece as he has been doing this during the epilogues almost a year ago. Before Hs^2 came out.

Also why would they be actively antagonistic even if any of them had an axe to grind against the fans? They wouldn't benefit.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by pfeffer-29 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:20 pm

thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:27 pm
Well the question is if its the Character of Dirk doing it or if it is meant to be taken as the writers doing it. I think its pretty clear that it is Dirk who is doing it here rather than Dirk being the mouth piece as he has been doing this during the epilogues almost a year ago. Before Hs^2 came out.
The thing is, Dirk isn't purposefully antagonistic to the readers. He thinks he's doing what they want, and that what they want is what he wants: twisty plot stuff, game mechanics, and time shenanigans. But he interrupts character moments and rambles for paragraph upon paragraph of (metaphorically) purple prose to do it, and this is meant to be annoying. I certainly found it annoying. And of course, there's all the messed-up stuff he did in the Epilogues, which does not help his case. Dirk is a villain. Since he has yet to do anything directly beneficial to the narrative with his strategy, that strategy is tied to his villainy.

The views Dirk holds would place him firmly in the Acts 1-5 crowd if he were a Homestuck fan. Because there is no-one else in Homestuck^2 who holds these views, Dirk is the de facto representative of the Acts 1-5 fans. And he is an insufferable prick who doesn't care about character arcs or passing the Bechdel test.

Dirk does not hold the writers' views. He is meant to represent those who don't hold the writers' views. This is one of the many reasons he is problematic. Dirk has opinions that would be considered extreme by everyone, even the people he is meant to represent. By picking an extremist as the sole representative of a group, one labels the entire group extremists.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by thorondraco » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:15 am

pfeffer-29 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:20 pm
thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:27 pm
Well the question is if its the Character of Dirk doing it or if it is meant to be taken as the writers doing it. I think its pretty clear that it is Dirk who is doing it here rather than Dirk being the mouth piece as he has been doing this during the epilogues almost a year ago. Before Hs^2 came out.
The thing is, Dirk isn't purposefully antagonistic to the readers. He thinks he's doing what they want, and that what they want is what he wants: twisty plot stuff, game mechanics, and time shenanigans. But he interrupts character moments and rambles for paragraph upon paragraph of (metaphorically) purple prose to do it, and this is meant to be annoying. I certainly found it annoying. And of course, there's all the messed-up stuff he did in the Epilogues, which does not help his case. Dirk is a villain. Since he has yet to do anything directly beneficial to the narrative with his strategy, that strategy is tied to his villainy.

The views Dirk holds would place him firmly in the Acts 1-5 crowd if he were a Homestuck fan. Because there is no-one else in Homestuck^2 who holds these views, Dirk is the de facto representative of the Acts 1-5 fans. And he is an insufferable prick who doesn't care about character arcs or passing the Bechdel test.

Dirk does not hold the writers' views. He is meant to represent those who don't hold the writers' views. This is one of the many reasons he is problematic. Dirk has opinions that would be considered extreme by everyone, even the people he is meant to represent. By picking an extremist as the sole representative of a group, one labels the entire group extremists.
... I highly doubt that they are using him as an actual strawman against people who don't like the comic dude. And since when has Dirk ever operated on being purely genuine? Him Actually thinking and believing he is being just like old homestuck is out of character for Dirk, who is always about irony and being a distant aloof douche. The only time he has been anything close to straight with us is during his statement that he believes he is doing good but also believes he is the villain and has to be one. He wants to die the villain.
His snide remarks about our voyeur view of his and his friends lives and statements like 'fuck you you are stuck with me if you want this shit' clearly shows that he wishes he didn't ahve to entertain us.

Seriously Dirk's whole deal is being aloof, why would he actually be serious about given even the slightest damn about his story being exactly like homestuck? He is calling us perverts and mocking us for our reliance on him to show us the story at this time. That ain't the actions of a guy who is concerned bout our opinion too much. Literally his 'relationship' with us post epilogue is a collective 'stop making homestuck'. which he cut in half and said 'yaknow, fuck you too.' basically. He repeatedly dares people to stop reading his shit too. This is a man that doesn't give enough fucks about whether or not its 'accurate'. He knows damn well he ain't no hussie and is actively mocking us by claiming we are 'going back to our roots folks'.

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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by RoyalFiddle » Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:38 am

pfeffer-29 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:20 pm
thorondraco wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:27 pm
Well the question is if its the Character of Dirk doing it or if it is meant to be taken as the writers doing it. I think its pretty clear that it is Dirk who is doing it here rather than Dirk being the mouth piece as he has been doing this during the epilogues almost a year ago. Before Hs^2 came out.
The thing is, Dirk isn't purposefully antagonistic to the readers. He thinks he's doing what they want, and that what they want is what he wants: twisty plot stuff, game mechanics, and time shenanigans. But he interrupts character moments and rambles for paragraph upon paragraph of (metaphorically) purple prose to do it, and this is meant to be annoying. I certainly found it annoying. And of course, there's all the messed-up stuff he did in the Epilogues, which does not help his case. Dirk is a villain. Since he has yet to do anything directly beneficial to the narrative with his strategy, that strategy is tied to his villainy.

The views Dirk holds would place him firmly in the Acts 1-5 crowd if he were a Homestuck fan. Because there is no-one else in Homestuck^2 who holds these views, Dirk is the de facto representative of the Acts 1-5 fans. And he is an insufferable prick who doesn't care about character arcs or passing the Bechdel test.

Dirk does not hold the writers' views. He is meant to represent those who don't hold the writers' views. This is one of the many reasons he is problematic. Dirk has opinions that would be considered extreme by everyone, even the people he is meant to represent. By picking an extremist as the sole representative of a group, one labels the entire group extremists.
I think you make a lot of interesting points here, but I want to take this in a secondary direction, and maybe expose on it a little further. Dirk wants what the average Homestuck reader as of Act 6 wanted. "Enough of the character drama, go back to the plot stuff and game mechanics!" was such a common complaint about the comic at the time, to the point it got incredibly annoying. And I feel like this missed the point of Homestuck, which was that it was never really about the mechanics of the game. Yeah, they are fun, and interesting to talk about, but, they were always meant to be a springboard into meta narratives and character relationships. And I think it's more than self evident from the plethora of Fanventures that nothing but the game mechanics, or a priority focus on the game mechanics with the characters as a backdrop, ends up boring. (I also think that Hussie and co. recognize that as well, and that's why they've only showed the part of the game that everyone seems to agree is actually really interesting, ectobiology and alchemy, cutting away the other factors and giving regular interludes of character drama. Giving us this cake narrative of Dirk being a stand in and a post-work reflection on the fandom, while allowing us to eat the cake without getting sick from an excess of flour.)

I will say though, I don't think he's the only person with views within this headspace. Rose, for example, holds the perspective on the narrative that, while the character drama is good, ultimately it's not Good if that is all there is, with the action and plot suffering for it. This is the way narratives present themselves in a traditional fashion, I feel, having characters develop only if it's in service of the plot or doesn't come at the cost of the plot. In perspective, the generalized audience wouldn't like it if an action movie stopped half way through and instead held all of the characters sitting around and talking to each other for several weeks. This, on the surface level, is what Homestuck turned into, and it's another perspective that critiques it's own source, while writing it's future. It's, I believe, important to note that Rose is the only Ult. Self we've noticed so far without any narrative awareness, outside of things being "canon" or "Non-canon"

Another perspective that's provided is from someone who believes in the sanctity of the narrative, is Alt. Calliope. Alt. Calliope holds this belief that the character relations are all that matters, and loathes the fact that Dirk wants to disrupt that to further the plot. Her perspective is, as well, a function of the audience, and I personally believe, a function that's connected to what Calliope has always been, the Tumblr part of the Homestuck audience, shipping and forcing people into rounds holes while the characters are square pegs (Woobiefying them). This perspective is also presented as unhealthy within the context of Homestuck through the entirety of Candy, a timeline in which everything is entirely character driven. Not to say that any of the perspectives are healthy, but the two mentioned prior are obviously unhealthy, while Calliope's is insidiously unhealthy.

Terezi, and, I assume, Davebot, both hold the perspective that the reflection of the narrative, it's manipulation via characters, and this whole metanarrative thing shouldn't be fucked with, and is, in fact, dumb as shit. It's two characters who have always had a strong tie to the metafictional aspects (Terezi, being the one to direct John's Retcon abilities, as well as in the presence being able to notice the manipulation, and Dave, being a close self-insert of Hussie himself, to the point of him being the only character with conversations Hussie has held verbatim). This is mostly speculation, but I feel as if Dave is one who would lean towards plot if push came to shove, and Terezi would be the more character driven one (Reflected in this upd8).

Ultimately what does this serve? These perspectives on the nature of the narrative, the ideals of plot driven vs. character driven, what does any of it matter? If saying nothing creates a nonexistence, and having or trying to change the perspective in any way creates a worse end result, what is left? I think this may be something explored further in the future. Nobody is right, and nobody is able to see the negatives of their ideals, But nobody is evil either, the only true evil being nonexistence, something that's been dealt with and is continuing to be dealt with.

If I had to guess, from this early on, how it all ended, I'd say that eventually John, or June will return, and I think they'll go Ultimate Self. I think they'll end up convincing Terezi and Davebot to understand the narrative in a different way, and I think that through whatever actions they take, we'll get a branch of the epilogues by the end that present a perspective Hussie finds is healthy. Something good for you, and good for what's inside it too. A... vegetable, if you would.

Probably talking entirely out of my ass on this one but I found it interesting to write and parse through
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1M BL1ND
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by calamityCons » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:22 am

RoyalFiddle wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:38 am

I think you make a lot of interesting points here, but I want to take this in a secondary direction, and maybe expose on it a little further. Dirk wants what the average Homestuck reader as of Act 6 wanted. "Enough of the character drama, go back to the plot stuff and game mechanics!" was such a common complaint about the comic at the time, to the point it got incredibly annoying. And I feel like this missed the point of Homestuck, which was that it was never really about the mechanics of the game. Yeah, they are fun, and interesting to talk about, but, they were always meant to be a springboard into meta narratives and character relationships. And I think it's more than self evident from the plethora of Fanventures that nothing but the game mechanics, or a priority focus on the game mechanics with the characters as a backdrop, ends up boring. (I also think that Hussie and co. recognize that as well, and that's why they've only showed the part of the game that everyone seems to agree is actually really interesting, ectobiology and alchemy, cutting away the other factors and giving regular interludes of character drama. Giving us this cake narrative of Dirk being a stand in and a post-work reflection on the fandom, while allowing us to eat the cake without getting sick from an excess of flour.)
I have been lurking this thread but this part of what you said made me a little mad, because you're confusing the inexperience and usually for-fun nature of Suburb fan ventures as proof that the concept of the game mechanics themselves are bad or boring. This makes me mad because rather than acknowledging the diamonds in the rough such as Redditstuck, Bilious, Divine Interference: Cosmic Exertion, or many many others that DO focus on the game mechanics and DO have interesting stories with engaging characters without losing that focus of being in a strange world with strange rules and trying to succeed in some way... you just dismiss all of that and paint them all with the same brush to make the point of "the game mechanics aren't engaging" when in reality it's just that the writers of those poorer or less interesting fan ventures are inexperienced and still learning how to write a story.

If the game mechanics other than the exobiology and alchemy are not interesting, then what about Rigged, which focuses on the Carapaces and their lives, how their lives are modified and affected by things such as prototyping the kernel sprite (a game mechanic) and the god tier titles of the players (a game mechanic). What about Karkat Goes to a Convention, which has a huge focus on actually fighting the underlings (a game mechanic) and teaching characters like Jack and Stacy how to use an alchemiter (a game mechanic). And don't forget that the concept of an Ultimate Self is a game mechanic as well, because it has to include every Instance of a character who happened to achieve the God Tiers (a game mechanic) and get magic superpowers (a game mechanic).

The rules of the medium and the magic of a game of Sburb are instrumental parts of why I and many others like me were engaged with the story back in 2009. I think it is a mistake to sweep all of that away and dismiss them all as bad just because some teenager's creative abilities aren't up to snuff because this is the first time they've tried to make something similar to a thing they love.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:14 am

calamityCons wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:22 am
RoyalFiddle wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:38 am
I think you make a lot of interesting points here...
I have been lurking this thread but this part of what you said made me a little mad, because you're confusing the inexperience and usually for-fun nature of Suburb fan ventures as proof that the concept of the game mechanics themselves are bad or boring. This makes me mad because rather than acknowledging the diamonds in the rough such as Redditstuck, Bilious, Divine Interference: Cosmic Exertion, or many many others that DO focus on the game mechanics and DO have interesting stories with engaging characters without losing that focus of being in a strange world with strange rules and trying to succeed in some way... you just dismiss all of that and paint them all with the same brush to make the point of "the game mechanics aren't engaging" when in reality it's just that the writers of those poorer or less interesting fan ventures are inexperienced and still learning how to write a story.

If the game mechanics other than the exobiology and alchemy are not interesting, then what about Rigged, which focuses on the Carapaces and their lives, how their lives are modified and affected by things such as prototyping the kernel sprite (a game mechanic) and the god tier titles of the players (a game mechanic). What about Karkat Goes to a Convention, which has a huge focus on actually fighting the underlings (a game mechanic) and teaching characters like Jack and Stacy how to use an alchemiter (a game mechanic). And don't forget that the concept of an Ultimate Self is a game mechanic as well, because it has to include every Instance of a character who happened to achieve the God Tiers (a game mechanic) and get magic superpowers (a game mechanic).

The rules of the medium and the magic of a game of Sburb are instrumental parts of why I and many others like me were engaged with the story back in 2009. I think it is a mistake to sweep all of that away and dismiss them all as bad just because some teenager's creative abilities aren't up to snuff because this is the first time they've tried to make something similar to a thing they love.
Really much of this comes down to personal taste, but really when were discussing whether Homestuck's game mechanics are interesting we need to find out where to draw the line between "Game Mechanic" and "Character interaction." For the purpose of argument let's look at that example you used from Karkat goes to a Convention. The usage of XOL commands in alchemy definitely counts as a game mechanic, and is definitely entertaining, no question. However, much of the value would be lost if not for how the characters responded to it, a character interaction. Yes the exiles are technically part of the game, but they are totally autonomous, so would probably better fit as a character interaction. What I'm getting at is the line is blurred in the definition between game mechanic and character interaction, and they generally work best paired together, which is what I believe Fiddle was getting at, to not overload the reader with extraneous information about the game and focus on how well the characters interact with the system. Not to mention, like I said, a lot of it comes down to personal taste. Kartat Goes to a Convention is uncontroversially good, but I personally found Redditstuck to be super boring.
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Re: Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

Post by calamityCons » Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:02 pm

Character interaction with the environment around them is the main draw for me, and it is right to my taste. I like it when the characters like one another and play off one another in fun ways that I would love to be a part of, rather than all hating one another and sticking together for poorly explained reasons even though they keep playing romantic musical chairs with each other. I like it when crazy shit happens because characters have superpowers or a cool plan that they execute in unanticipated ways, or a challenge is thrown at them that they must work together to overcome.

And even if this was all text and part of the story of Homestuck^2, it would be. REALLY nice if it was presented to me in a way that I actually enjoyed reading it, rather than finding the villains of this story insufferably rude to me as the reader, or just nothing but setup and exposition front loaded without anything interesting happening. Homestuck began with John doing wacky things in his house and that is universally considered a poor beginning to a story like Homestuck because of just how drawn out and long it took before John installed his game and the world around them started to actually shift around IN REAL LIFE and that made me go "woah, WHAT, WHY ARE YOU NOT SURPRISED ABOUT THIS???" and kept me glued to the story. Just. Eurgh.
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