THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

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thorondraco
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:14 pm

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:49 pm
egg wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:42 pm
At the same time, Epilogue Dirk isn't made out this way, his actions are painted in a completely negative light. He's made to be a transphobe, we don't get to see him be vulnerable,
I think his transphobia does count as an example of him being vulnerable.
Jade looks at where her hands are folded in her lap. Bites her lip. She has her own concerns about this, her own thoughts. Reasonable thoughts, I’d say. But I’ll refrain from any further comment. I’m staying away from this subject, from now on.
If were allowed to look into Jade's mind, we'd likely see thoughts that have similar levels of transphobia to those of Dirk. However, since Dirk is letting her keep those to herself, we don't judge her the same way as we judge him.
I felt his transphobia wasn't really transphobia and more him just being pissed at Roxie and trying to hide it.

Out of his four friends he probably is closest to Roxie. They grew up in the same situation, trying to survive on a ruined earth. They both have 'parents' that are long dead in the past figures they attached themselves to.

Then we go back to the Prologue, presumably being narrated by Dirk still, and what we thought was John wondering about what was going on in Roxie's head. While yea John wouldn't have any damn clue what she's thinking, DIRK doesn't know what she is thinking. And when he learns that Roxie had this whole gender nonbinary thing going on in their head the entire time, he probably got soooo fucking pissed.

In part cause he is a controlling asshole, and in part he can't do ANYTHING with Roxie because of it. It may well have been he wanted them to come with him. That or be his enemy but i imagine he wanted to bring his oldest friend with him. But they just have to be impossible for him to get into the headspace of, to even properly Narrate. Far as we know not even Calliope can properly narrate Roxie and has to do so indirectly.
When Dirk is in control, Roxie is the only one safe from him.

So its very possible he is just really upset when it comes to Roxie in general and is just fuming. in a sense they revealing they are nonbinary, and probably the situation we ended on when Roxie was experimenting with being a boy, just shows how little her truly understood Roxie, and emphasizing his lack of power over her. And more so, the isolation it has created, cause he cannot connect with his oldest friend in any way now.

Basically the whole nonbinary reveal for Roxie was blunt an clumsy and kinda lacked foreshadowing, because Dirk couldn't foreshadow it and had no more idea than the audience. Both shows Roxie's reveal and that they are immune to Dirk.

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by JakeMorph » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:18 pm

thoron i get the impression you dont really know what is and isnt offensive to trans people
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by MorganMustDie » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:25 pm

JakeMorph wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:18 pm
thoron i get the impression you dont really know what is and isnt offensive to trans people
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by RoyalFiddle » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:38 pm

Is no one going to point out they are consistently spelling Roxy as roxie.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:22 pm

RoyalFiddle wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:38 pm
Is no one going to point out they are consistently spelling Roxy as roxie.
Aaah fuck you are right!

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by TH4NK YOU B3N » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:38 pm

Dear God. Can we not do this? I can’t sit through any more gender chat. It feels inappropriate. Horrendously invasive of Roxy’s deepest personal thoughts. Can we just leave her inner monologue the fuck alone when it comes to this stuff? Is NOTHING sacred? I’m about to fucking flip.
I quoted this because I thought you said Dirk was mad at Roxy for hiding their gender identity, rather than Dirk hiding his anger. But this quote also works for Dirk's reasoning behind not narrating what Jade is thinking.

If we're going with meta-textual parallels between audience reaction and Dirk's reaction, "Dirk's mad at the bad writing because he thinks his world is made of bad writing" is weak and also boring.

A lot of trans people noticed the trans coding of these characters from early on (for example, the joke about the chromosomes in roxy's name), but since Roxy and Dirk had feminine and masculine aesthetics respectively, we ended up parsing Roxy and Dirk as trans in directions opposite of what the Epilogues have shown us. So, it was there.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:20 pm

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:38 pm
Dear God. Can we not do this? I can’t sit through any more gender chat. It feels inappropriate. Horrendously invasive of Roxy’s deepest personal thoughts. Can we just leave her inner monologue the fuck alone when it comes to this stuff? Is NOTHING sacred? I’m about to fucking flip.
I quoted this because I thought you said Dirk was mad at Roxy for hiding their gender identity, rather than Dirk hiding his anger. But this quote also works for Dirk's reasoning behind not narrating what Jade is thinking.

If we're going with meta-textual parallels between audience reaction and Dirk's reaction, "Dirk's mad at the bad writing because he thinks his world is made of bad writing" is weak and also boring.
Be fair i admitably don't have the best grasp on what offends people in the transgender community as i am not transgender and i will openly admit there is a lot i struggle understanding its nuances. But i have long, long learned that a lack of understanding is no fucking excuse NOT to try and understand it. Though admitably i haven't had the best luck with information. contradicting evidence, vague statement like 'this is offensive to some people but not others'. But i try to learn more regardless.

The thing i did note is that at first it was clear that Chapter 19's primary focuses was supposed to be Calliope's nonbinary reveal and Jade' linking into her other self, though we don't know if its Dirk doing it or Alt Calliope. Meaning he was trying to give Calliope her own bit. But then Roxy, who is by no means under Dirk's control, probably thought that 'this is about the best time as any to tell, anyone' and spoke up.
It seems like a potential emotional conga-line. He didn't seem upset at all about Calliope's reveal cause, he probably planned it and knew it all along. Roxy though disrupts his plans and he might have felt almost attacked. Roxy is an X factor, is a close friend, and showed there that they really don't wear their heart on their sleeve. So he just got petty and nasty and so god damn frustrated.

It is kind of a weird contradiction goin on here is all. He was setting up a reveal for Calliope yet gets really passive aggressive and seemingly transphobic soon after. The shift seems to be Roxie.

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by TH4NK YOU B3N » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:28 pm

You did the thing with the name again.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:12 pm

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:28 pm
You did the thing with the name again.
God damn it it caught me at the end there! Keep on confusing the spelling, know of other characters of the same name in other media. https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Roxie . That is just one.

Also its hard to say if Hussie had any intentions when it came to transgender and nonbinary stuff cause it is a very sensitive subject. He might not have had the mindset to give it justice, which they do now. More so he would want to make jokes about it in some manner and he would first need to give it the justice its deserves before he can poke fun at it.
But the new guys literally have transgender and nonbinary peeps writing it. Thus we can have phrases like Thembo friendslut now in all its glory.

But this is getting further away from Dirk. Will say i wasn't excusing Dirk's actions. He was being nasty. But it seems less genuine transphobia and more him being petty and very angry.

Honestly that arguably makes it worse cause he knows full well he is being inappropriate and sarcastic but is doing it anyway.

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:47 pm

JakeMorph wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:18 pm
thoron i get the impression you dont really know what is and isnt offensive to trans people
I will admit i probably don't. I am trying to learn more in general though an try to avoid making people uncomfortable.

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by JakeMorph » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:59 pm

the point is less whether he intended to insult roxy's identity specifically and more that the comments he made WERE insulting, and that if he was concerned more about respecting roxy's identity he would have thought more before making the comments.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 am

JakeMorph wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:59 pm
the point is less whether he intended to insult roxy's identity specifically and more that the comments he made WERE insulting, and that if he was concerned more about respecting roxy's identity he would have thought more before making the comments.
I think that is kinda my point. He wasn't trying to respect roxy cause he was so angry at them. He was actively trying to insult them, even though there is no way they would even hear him insulting them. As Dirk tends to be more subtle most of the time, it kinda shows just how angry he was.

It was a very nasty thing to do without question, i think the takeaway of him being transphobic was hiding the hurt and anger he felt towards Roxy at that point..
I honestly believe dirk would rather be thought of as a raging transphobe than admit he was really hurt when it comes to Roxy.

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by egg » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:58 am

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:49 pm
egg wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:42 pm
At the same time, Epilogue Dirk isn't made out this way, his actions are painted in a completely negative light. He's made to be a transphobe, we don't get to see him be vulnerable,
I think his transphobia does count as an example of him being vulnerable.
Yeah, okay, you got me there, it does. But I'm not sure if it counts as an example of him being sympathetic. We don't quite get to see Dirk tear down his emotional walls in a way that's made to make the viewer feel for him, as we see in this series of logs for Vriska, amongst others. While we do get to see a rare flustered Dirk in that specific scene, it's played as a thing meant to disgust the reader, whom the writing team surely aware is most likely supportive of transgender rights or is transgender themselves. I know that bit of dialogue completely ruined Dirk's character for a few people. I myself didn't care that much, because it seemed to me like something he was always capable of doing, and I don't have much emotional attachment to these characters anyway, but I don't really think Dirk is intended to be a very empathetic character yet.
Like I said, he takes a very main stage role in Homestuck^2, where there's a very big chance we'll see a sympathetic side of him. But there's no point in basing an argument in what may or may not happen.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by TH4NK YOU B3N » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:57 am

Homestuck name rules: Four letters

@egg Ok, that's fair. He does screw that up consistently, and . Personally, I thought how his first reaction to Roxy coming out was "Well, I'M not a girl" is really funny. Like, you know how Dave talked about the Homo's Journey, the steps it takes to go from homophobe to homosexual? Because I'm keeping my distance and understanding that the authors aren't transphobic by depicting transphobia, I can just laugh and go "Oh, you! You'll understand when you're older." I see how his reaction matches those of trans women who are disappointed that they have one less cool girl to look up to as a role model. So they decide to ignore this aspect of Roxy and keep headcanoning her as a trans woman.

Then again, I do conflate evil and foolishness. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

In real life, I would be pissed if someone used the wrong pronouns for me, corrected themselves, and apologized profusely. They're the one making a big deal out of it and not me. It's really awkward and distracts from what everyone else wants to talk about. I would still find pleasure in making fun of them, but I'd also be hurt.

I think I'd consider Dirk a fun villain if I didn't think demonically possessing Jade to be a far worse violation. Considering that the main metanarrative conflict is between those two, I consider Dirk to be heroic by default. Yes, despite keeping his dying sister-daughter captive. Yes, even though Calliope thinks it's a sacrifice for the greater good.

I guess it's possible for the dead cherub to undergo character development herself, nobody seems to be framing it that way and it's hard for me to imagine.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by thorondraco » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:12 pm

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:57 am
Homestuck name rules: Four letters

@egg Ok, that's fair. He does screw that up consistently, and . Personally, I thought how his first reaction to Roxy coming out was "Well, I'M not a girl" is really funny. Like, you know how Dave talked about the Homo's Journey, the steps it takes to go from homophobe to homosexual? Because I'm keeping my distance and understanding that the authors aren't transphobic by depicting transphobia, I can just laugh and go "Oh, you! You'll understand when you're older." I see how his reaction matches those of trans women who are disappointed that they have one less cool girl to look up to as a role model. So they decide to ignore this aspect of Roxy and keep headcanoning her as a trans woman.

Then again, I do conflate evil and foolishness. "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence."

In real life, I would be pissed if someone used the wrong pronouns for me, corrected themselves, and apologized profusely. They're the one making a big deal out of it and not me. It's really awkward and distracts from what everyone else wants to talk about. I would still find pleasure in making fun of them, but I'd also be hurt.

I think I'd consider Dirk a fun villain if I didn't think demonically possessing Jade to be a far worse violation. Considering that the main metanarrative conflict is between those two, I consider Dirk to be heroic by default. Yes, despite keeping his dying sister-daughter captive. Yes, even though Calliope thinks it's a sacrifice for the greater good.

I guess it's possible for the dead cherub to undergo character development herself, nobody seems to be framing it that way and it's hard for me to imagine.
She definitely will try to resist any development for sure. But she makes the mistake of thinking that Dirk is anything like her brother. Dirk, is far, far more clever than Caliborn ever was or ever could be. His mastery has always bene multitasking. Who knows how many things he is doing at once. So once she realizes she is struggling if not losing she will probably panic and realize she is not really some stoic cosmic entity that is above it all.
She is expecting to play chess and he is, but he is also playing checkers of both the normal and mundane variety while doing a game of scrabble while she is still stuck on chess.

I DO think the demonic possession is at least somewhat consensual. Like Jade knows whats going down and let Calloipe use her body. Though of course considering calliope's powers, we don't entirely know how 'consensual' it was.

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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by eldritchCorvus » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:08 pm

Dirk, enough said
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:50 pm

Not really.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by TH4NK YOU B3N » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:47 am

https://www.homestuck.com/story/448

When you're trying to teach your little brother about the AIDS crisis and the fight for marriage equality through kitschy puppets of iconic tough guys but you overestimate how much a 13 year old comprehends, and your little brother doesn't want to come off as ignorant so he nods along pretending to get it, and he's really dumb, and you're an artsy intellectual queer activist but you're also dumb, and you're both dumb as fuck.
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by eldritchCorvus » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:53 am

Dirk
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Re: THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

Post by calamityCons » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:07 am

He’s not that good, is he.
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