Why are First Guardians like that

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VASKA
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Why are First Guardians like that

Post by VASKA » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:22 pm

First Guardians are allegedly there to protect planets with sentient life so that they can go on to play the game, but what are they protecting them from? And even though I dont know what they're protecting the planet from, they seem to be doing a shitty job at it.

Bec doesn't really care about anything except Jade and actually destroys the whole planet to save her, which is pretty anti-Guardian if you ask me. He doesn't even seem to be much smarter than a normal dog, so you have to wonder how effective he could be even if he wasn't apathetic.

Doc Scratch is arguably even worse for his planet than anything else the universe could throw at it, and was only allowed to exist in A2 due to a loophole set up by english to allow the scratch to create a universe with him in it.

When the Condesce invades Earth B2, GCAT literally rolls over and just let's it happen, although mind control was a factor at play. It seems weird that the first "abnormal" threat posed to an entire planet is not only ignored but actively encouraged by its Guardian.

Earth C and Deltritus seem to be doing fine without Guardians, or at least better than Alternia and Earth B2. So what are these guys even doing?
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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by RoyalFiddle » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:35 pm

First Guardians are made to protect the existence of the game first and foremost

"We always got kind of a creepy vibe from Bec. He's technically defending Jade, but there's something ominously ulterior about his presence. If there are any beings who would be uniquely encoded to instinctively commit whatever self-fulfilling deeds are critical to Sburb's agenda, it would be a First Guardian. We've seen how Doc Scratch has no compunction about doing the same, but he does so by bringing his powerful intellect to bear on the task, rather than the way a dog would handle it, through powerful instinct. There are many necessary features of blowing up the meteor like this. The Bec-head exile station must be seeded in many parts all over the planet. The destruction of Earth, a shame though it is, is still critical to everything. If he simply teleports the meteor away, there's no impact of this size to wipe everything else out. Yet he can't let it strike the house. So this seems to be the best compromise. Oh, also let's not forget that the existence of Bec Noir is critical to the ultimate dysfunction of this session. Maybe that's why Bec is a little creepy. He's only innocently following his instincts, but his instincts demand that he help bring about some very dark outcomes" -Andrew Hussie, Jade: Enter
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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by Mandy » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:49 pm

This may be one of those things that looks weird because we've never seen a normal session. Most of those are pretty unusual cases. That, and protecting life so it can go on to play the game may be the key part. Once they've already reached that point, what does Paradox Space care about Earth? From that perspective, most of them did fine.

Doc Scratch, like you said, only exists because of Lord English. He doesn't act how First Guardians are supposed to, he acts as Lord English's agent. That aside, even if he was terrible for Alternia, he still served the purpose of preparing it for the game.

Bec and GCat are both domesticated, I have to wonder about how common it is for domesticated animals (or nonsapient ones for that matter) to be templates in normal sessions. But Bec still did what he was meant to. By the time the meteor hit, the last player was entering the game. Earth had nothing more to offer the session, beyond needing to physically be there for the exiles to land on. Protecting Jade was more important for Sburb's purposes. As for GCat, there was really nothing to protect it from. The Condesce was a threat to everyone except the players.

So yeah, if you look at them less as guardians of the planet, and more as guardians of the conditions needed to play and win Sburb, they make a lot more sense.

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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by Radical Dude 42 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:46 am

Yeah, it's less about saving-the-world and more about saving-the-session. Becquerel only really cares to save Jade because she's the last player/"chosen one" needed for that session. Doc Scratch took a different approach and molded troll society to better shape the trolls into warriors that could easily beat SGRUB, which is still a matter of saving the session. And then GCat... well, I can't really remember much of GCat. Mandy is right, though, GCat didn't need to do anything to the Condesce because she wasn't really a threat to the players'/"chosen ones'" game entry.

As for the first guardians of Earth C and Deltritus (which is the HS^2 planet, right? I haven't really paid attention), IF they exist. First guardians don't really HAVE to exist, after all (or so I'm led to believe, at least. They may help a session, but they aren't absolutely needed, like, say, the frog temple). They only exist when created, which is very obvious, but their creation has yet to be explored for those two planets. Earth C's SBURB session is (probably!) so far off that it would be almost irrelevant to think about their first guardian. And for Deltritus, in a way, Dirk and co. are kind of like the first guardians. For all we (or maybe just I because I'm not really in-the-loop about HS^2) know, they are the benefactors guaranteeing that planet's SBURB session. That or perhaps they've already been around, but they haven't needed to interfere with our given characters. It's not like Bec needed to mess around with cavemen, anyway.

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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by Mandy » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:33 am

Radical Dude 42 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:46 am
Earth C's SBURB session is (probably!) so far off that it would be almost irrelevant to think about their first guardian.
Isn't Earth C's session Caliborn's? Considering the lack of any ectobiologizing, reckoning, and everything else normal, I kind of doubt a First Guardian came out of that.

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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by overThinker » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:36 am

Mandy wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:33 am
Radical Dude 42 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:46 am
Earth C's SBURB session is (probably!) so far off that it would be almost irrelevant to think about their first guardian.
Isn't Earth C's session Caliborn's? Considering the lack of any ectobiologizing, reckoning, and everything else normal, I kind of doubt a First Guardian came out of that.
that's actually a really interesting point. this is off topic but i wonder if earth c's universe is predestined to be the "last" universe to come out of sburb because of caliborn's session's nature as a dead session, which could explain why we haven't seen its first guardian, and could also explain why lord english is seen as the all encompassing embodiment of destruction and finality that he is. perhaps dirk, rose, and terezi will invent some sort of "new" version of sburb, or maybe a different universe-creating game entirely? or maybe the universes shown in homestuck are destined to create eachother in an illogical timeloop, not unlike how the trolls won their session because of rose's walkthrough, with rose only being able to write the walkthrough because the trolls won their session and created universe b1.
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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by Radical Dude 42 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:17 pm

Mandy wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:33 am
Isn't Earth C's session Caliborn's? Considering the lack of any ectobiologizing, reckoning, and everything else normal, I kind of doubt a First Guardian came out of that.
Oh, yeah, oops. I forgot about how Caliborn was on Earth C. And then yeah, obviously no First Guardian would be on Earth C, because A. nobody in Caliborn's session ever MADE a first guardian and B. there weren't any meteor portals to send the creature back to the planet.
overThinker wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:36 am
that's actually a really interesting point. this is off topic but i wonder if earth c's universe is predestined to be the "last" universe to come out of sburb because of caliborn's session's nature as a dead session, which could explain why we haven't seen its first guardian, and could also explain why lord english is seen as the all encompassing embodiment of destruction and finality that he is.
I wouldn't think that Earth C would be the last universe EVER to be created out of SBURB. Last in its chain, sure (Earth fucked off into a black hole and then turned into Colours and Mayhem, after all, so it's not like it could host another session of SBURB), but there's always got to be other instances of frog temples on other planets.

And there always has been the exiles, which were meant to prepare the post-sburb planet for civilization again. I don't think it was ever explained more beyond that (the only fruitful outcome we've seen was with the Midnight Crew and the Felt, in which we only ever saw carapacians and leprechauns. Are we to assume other lifeforms have evolved? I cannot say.), but I always figured it would prepare the planet for SBURB once again. It's just a matter of an intelligent species recompiling the frog temple's code, anyway.
overThinker wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:36 am
perhaps dirk, rose, and terezi will invent some sort of "new" version of sburb, or maybe a different universe-creating game entirely? or maybe the universes shown in homestuck are destined to create eachother in an illogical timeloop, not unlike how the trolls won their session because of rose's walkthrough, with rose only being able to write the walkthrough because the trolls won their session and created universe b1.
I'm... not entirely sure how easy it would be to make a new version/a similar game to SBURB. It's kind of beyond programming, with most of the game just taking place in a different world. A different REAL and NON-PROGRAMMED (in a literal sense) world.

Also wait this thread was about first guardians. I guess we should probably shut up about the future-of-SBURB stuff?

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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by thorondraco » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:58 pm

Radical Dude 42 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:17 pm
Mandy wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:33 am
Isn't Earth C's session Caliborn's? Considering the lack of any ectobiologizing, reckoning, and everything else normal, I kind of doubt a First Guardian came out of that.
Oh, yeah, oops. I forgot about how Caliborn was on Earth C. And then yeah, obviously no First Guardian would be on Earth C, because A. nobody in Caliborn's session ever MADE a first guardian and B. there weren't any meteor portals to send the creature back to the planet.
overThinker wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:36 am
that's actually a really interesting point. this is off topic but i wonder if earth c's universe is predestined to be the "last" universe to come out of sburb because of caliborn's session's nature as a dead session, which could explain why we haven't seen its first guardian, and could also explain why lord english is seen as the all encompassing embodiment of destruction and finality that he is.
I wouldn't think that Earth C would be the last universe EVER to be created out of SBURB. Last in its chain, sure (Earth fucked off into a black hole and then turned into Colours and Mayhem, after all, so it's not like it could host another session of SBURB), but there's always got to be other instances of frog temples on other planets.

And there always has been the exiles, which were meant to prepare the post-sburb planet for civilization again. I don't think it was ever explained more beyond that (the only fruitful outcome we've seen was with the Midnight Crew and the Felt, in which we only ever saw carapacians and leprechauns. Are we to assume other lifeforms have evolved? I cannot say.), but I always figured it would prepare the planet for SBURB once again. It's just a matter of an intelligent species recompiling the frog temple's code, anyway.
overThinker wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:36 am
perhaps dirk, rose, and terezi will invent some sort of "new" version of sburb, or maybe a different universe-creating game entirely? or maybe the universes shown in homestuck are destined to create eachother in an illogical timeloop, not unlike how the trolls won their session because of rose's walkthrough, with rose only being able to write the walkthrough because the trolls won their session and created universe b1.
I'm... not entirely sure how easy it would be to make a new version/a similar game to SBURB. It's kind of beyond programming, with most of the game just taking place in a different world. A different REAL and NON-PROGRAMMED (in a literal sense) world.

Also wait this thread was about first guardians. I guess we should probably shut up about the future-of-SBURB stuff?
Let's take a few thigns into account.
The homestuck session seems to establish a lot of major developments. Lord english is implied to have affected other universes, as like some satan figure. We have the Green sun established as well as it is said to fuel all first guardians in existence. It appears as if the homestuck session is exceptionally important to paradox space.

The question is if the whole destruction of the furthest ring and such was, in fact, part of the 'story' as it was supposed to be. It honestly looks like it was nipping Lord english's whole deal in the bud. He had to finish off his sister before he coudl become Satan but he wasn't allowed to. he was beaten. like, maybe reality broke badly from this?

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Re: Why are First Guardians like that

Post by Bahinchut » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:12 pm

Mandy wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:49 pm
I have to wonder about how common it is for domesticated animals (or nonsapient ones for that matter) to be templates in normal sessions.
I would say more common than not. Doc Scratch definitely seems to be the outlier in that he was only given sapience and a great intellect because that's what was needed to put English's plan into motion and assure Doc's own existence. Otherwise a mostly stupid animal operating totally on instinct would serve just fine.
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