THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by eldritchCorvus » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:53 am

Vriska
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by RoyalFiddle » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:30 pm

(Vriska)
ROS3S 4R3 BL4CK
V1OL3TS 4R3 BL4CK
3V3RYTH1NG 1S BL4CK
1M BL1ND
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by PurplePest29 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:48 pm

All of home stuck is just 1 BIG court case for Vriska and in order to be deemed as 'doing nothing wrong' she has to kill his honourable tyranny (bec noir/lord english/all male villains lmao) just like her ancestor did.
So, i think if people want to consider alternative morals or w/e then they should examine its law.
Also im still waiting for tavros to kill her like rufio killed mindfang.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by PilotBlackSmith » Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:40 pm

I really dont like Vriska, specially after act 6.
I feel like her character was basically completed when she died in act 5, finally suffering the consequences of her actions. And then they bring her back and she's not the same person anymore, she didn't learn anything from her actions and got to take the spotlight of the story exactly how she wanted to, with no consequences to the things she did at all.
I really dont like how Terezi, of all things, decided to bring her back; I get it, "love" and shit, but... there were SO many better options than bringing the cripple killer manipulative pirate of your group back, and its also an extremely selfish act NO ONE calls her out on, considering the other trolls who died didnt get to come back at all, nice job for a seer huh.
I wonder how things would have gone differently if Hussie/Terezi used the literal god powers John had in a more creative or important way, instead of just "punch this girl I like so she turns good instead of the evil psychopath she usually is".

I will add one more thing however. What REALLY pains me is how all of this doesn't really matter in the context of paradox space. Unfortunately, according to how this story works, there is absolutely no alternative path that could have happened to lead us to where we are now, there is absolutely no other way things could have gone to still lead to a sucessful outcome, and I really hate all of it(this is a completely different argument than the one of "isnt that just how most stories go? I mean most stories can only go one way" and that is wrong, in almost every single other story out there, there is usually the IMPLICATION that there are different paths to victory and this is just the one the author is represented to us, but in Homestuck, Skaia and Paradox Space guarantee that there is ONE single path to victory, which is the one we're being shown). Vriska HAD to be an awful person for the kids to win, she HAD to do awful things to Tavros, Sollux, Aradia and the others in order to get where we are. For all intents and purposes, she has the moral high ground here despite being an awful person and doing awful things, all because "she followed the plan to a T".


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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by magnanimousLad » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:54 pm

PilotBlackSmith wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:40 pm
I really dont like Vriska, specially after act 6.
I feel like her character was basically completed when she died in act 5, finally suffering the consequences of her actions. And then they bring her back and she's not the same person anymore, she didn't learn anything from her actions and got to take the spotlight of the story exactly how she wanted to, with no consequences to the things she did at all.
I really dont like how Terezi, of all things, decided to bring her back; I get it, "love" and shit, but... there were SO many better options than bringing the cripple killer manipulative pirate of your group back, and its also an extremely selfish act NO ONE calls her out on, considering the other trolls who died didnt get to come back at all, nice job for a seer huh.
I wonder how things would have gone differently if Hussie/Terezi used the literal god powers John had in a more creative or important way, instead of just "punch this girl I like so she turns good instead of the evil psychopath she usually is".

I will add one more thing however. What REALLY pains me is how all of this doesn't really matter in the context of paradox space. Unfortunately, according to how this story works, there is absolutely no alternative path that could have happened to lead us to where we are now, there is absolutely no other way things could have gone to still lead to a sucessful outcome, and I really hate all of it(this is a completely different argument than the one of "isnt that just how most stories go? I mean most stories can only go one way" and that is wrong, in almost every single other story out there, there is usually the IMPLICATION that there are different paths to victory and this is just the one the author is represented to us, but in Homestuck, Skaia and Paradox Space guarantee that there is ONE single path to victory, which is the one we're being shown). Vriska HAD to be an awful person for the kids to win, she HAD to do awful things to Tavros, Sollux, Aradia and the others in order to get where we are. For all intents and purposes, she has the moral high ground here despite being an awful person and doing awful things, all because "she followed the plan to a T".
For what it's worth, your complaint is still valid. Paradox Space isn't a real thing that actually exists, it's a narrative tool, and like all narrativve tools can be used effectively or ineffectively. You can still have problems with her characterisation and storyline even if it's given an in-universe explaination. Though I'm sure I'm just telling you what you already know.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by calamityCons » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:27 pm

It's extremely valid to hate that the story and paradox space continues to bend over backwards and make leaps in logic and have horrible contrivances just to get this despicable character back into the story. She's really not someone I can ever bring myself to like, even though she's a great villain. The story wants to pretend so hard that she's a hero, and that she's necessary to be in the story's life because of her being herself, which I find is an extremely toxic thing that I don't like and don't want to see succeed.

She is definitely a great character, with many facets and a wonderfully executed villainous bent to her. But she's also someone I don't want in my life were she a real person, and watching her get everything she ever wanted in spite or even BECAUSE of her horrid behavior and attitudes is not to my taste and makes me upset in a bad way rather than in an engaging way. She's never going to get her comeuppance at this rate, and I hate that. I like it when villainous characters get their just desserts.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by Shitpost Lizard » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:09 pm

I'm not gonna go scour 7 pages of thread to find out if someone else already shared my sentiments,
but one of the self-reflecting dead Vriskas that realized her actions were shitty and wrong should have come back to life and been the "redeemed" one if they absolutely HAD to go that route.

Also I'm hardly an Eridan apologist, but I'd honestly prefer to see him get a redemption arc over Vriska.
They both belong in the Shitty Assholes Dumpster, but I feel like his assholery was more of a momentary breakdown, while Vriska's was long and sustained abuse.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:41 pm

I'm gonna be the odd one out here and say that I actually kind of liked how Vriska's redemption arc was scrapped, because it felt wrong in the right way. Like, it was obvious that we weren't supposed to be rooting for this new incarnation of Vriska, and that's what made it kind of harrowing, that the obviously bad Vriska got what she wanted over the kinder but consequently more passive Vriska. It sends a message, like Vriska can't succeed without her bitchiness, and that some of her twisted ideals about ruthlessness being key to success and survival were in a way right. Granted this kind of plot development only would have worked if everyone got the exact same reading of it I did, and looking at the current landscape of Homestuck, it's more than obvious that didn't happen.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by AsherCrane » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:51 pm

ThePungeonMaster wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:41 pm
I'm gonna be the odd one out here and say that I actually kind of liked how Vriska's redemption arc was scrapped, because it felt wrong in the right way. Like, it was obvious that we weren't supposed to be rooting for this new incarnation of Vriska, and that's what made it kind of harrowing, that the obviously bad Vriska got what she wanted over the kinder but consequently more passive Vriska. It sends a message, like Vriska can't succeed without her bitchiness, and that some of her twisted ideals about ruthlessness being key to success and survival were in a way right. Granted this kind of plot development only would have worked if everyone got the exact same reading of it I did, and looking at the current landscape of Homestuck, it's more than obvious that didn't happen.
I like it being scrapped well enough, and got the same read you did. I feel like both (Vriska) and Alpha!Vriska each had weaknesses that were problematic, but even with the almost improvement that (Vriska) had, she wasn’t the Vriska the story needed in order to succeed. The Vriska that succeeded had the confidence and motivation to do what needed to be done to help everyone else... even if that confidence and desire came from the wrong place. Vriska lambasting (Vriska) was just a side effect of the more negative faults that resulted in that confidence and motivation.

I don’t think (Vriska) or Vriska are particularly better than each other. Obviously, Vriska looks much worse, because externally, she’s more aggressive and mean than (Vriska), but (Vriska) doesn’t seem much healthier because she looks really co-dependent to me, which is also unhealthy.

(Vriska) just had a brand of unhealthiness that wasn’t as helpful in that moment. In another time, with different circumstances, I imagine (Vriska) could have been much more what was needed for the narrative. It just didn’t turn out that way in the end.

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by PilotBlackSmith » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:12 pm

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by pfeffer-29 » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:41 am

Oh boy, this qualifies as vriscourse!

Vriska sucked in the latest HS2 update. I'm not gonna go into the weird soap-opera drama right now because I feel psychological pain every time I read Jade's daughter's name. So, Vriska sucked in this update.

Recap: Vriska yells at the kids when their argument gets too out of hand, and gives Harry a spare strife specibus that she somehow had on her. When she suddenly decides to come out of hiding without group consent, she delivers an epic speech and beats up the surrounding reporters, which allows everyone to escape. Then the door to the bell tower magically unlocks because of her luck powers.

This would all be fine if Vriska's character flaws actually impacted the story. In Homestuck proper, she could warp events to her will, but she was never invulnerable because her massive ego, general disregard for other people's life, and penchant for aggression could let her screw up anyway. She was responsible for Bec Noir, Terezi's blindness, and Tavros's death, which hurt Tavros, Terezi, and everyone Bec Noir ever killed, including herself indirectly.

In HS2 (and arguably, post-retcon HS1), Vriska is aggressive and violent, but these traits never hinder her progress or hurt someone else. When she is rude to the kids, she stops their petty argument. When she impulsively reveals their hiding-place, she hurts the police and reporters who were waiting outside, but it's fine because they were working for CrockerCorp. Her flaws aren't actually flaws because they're not treated as such by the narrative. Vriska Serket can do no wrong.

Vriska Serket is a Mary Sue.

Hot take?
you can pry karezi out of my cold dead hands

A hearty BUTTER GOOD to all!

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by luigi » Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:22 pm

pfeffer-29 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:41 am
Oh boy, this qualifies as vriscourse!

Vriska sucked in the latest HS2 update. I'm not gonna go into the weird soap-opera drama right now because I feel psychological pain every time I read Jade's daughter's name. So, Vriska sucked in this update.

Recap: Vriska yells at the kids when their argument gets too out of hand, and gives Harry a spare strife specibus that she somehow had on her. When she suddenly decides to come out of hiding without group consent, she delivers an epic speech and beats up the surrounding reporters, which allows everyone to escape. Then the door to the bell tower magically unlocks because of her luck powers.

This would all be fine if Vriska's character flaws actually impacted the story. In Homestuck proper, she could warp events to her will, but she was never invulnerable because her massive ego, general disregard for other people's life, and penchant for aggression could let her screw up anyway. She was responsible for Bec Noir, Terezi's blindness, and Tavros's death, which hurt Tavros, Terezi, and everyone Bec Noir ever killed, including herself indirectly.

In HS2 (and arguably, post-retcon HS1), Vriska is aggressive and violent, but these traits never hinder her progress or hurt someone else. When she is rude to the kids, she stops their petty argument. When she impulsively reveals their hiding-place, she hurts the police and reporters who were waiting outside, but it's fine because they were working for CrockerCorp. Her flaws aren't actually flaws because they're not treated as such by the narrative. Vriska Serket can do no wrong.

Vriska Serket is a Mary Sue.

Hot take?
It's really weird how much screen time she's getting, essentially acting as the 4th new kid right now. But we know this new team (+ Hussie) have strong Vriska favoritism so :/
tumut

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by mspainadventures » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:55 pm

I'm really late, but
ThePungeonMaster wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:19 pm
egg wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:42 pm
...
In my post I meant to refer to Dirk as in Homestuck act 7 and prior. Even if Ultimate Dirk is different in many ways from Dirk acts 1-7, he is still, fundamentally the same person. The hero Dirk is still in there, but now he has to share bunks with the villain Dirk. ..
I think change is inherent to personhood, and while ultimate dirk is still Dirk, he isn't the same Dirk as the Dirk that existed before Homestuck^2 or the epilogues. and... I actually think hero dirk might've died in the candy timeline. The candy/meat divide seems to have strong vibes of separating characters into distinct versions/interpretations.
I dont think that I can handle this right now.

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by harmoniousCalamity » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:02 am

pfeffer-29 wrote:
Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:41 am

In HS2 (and arguably, post-retcon HS1), Vriska is aggressive and violent, but these traits never hinder her progress or hurt someone else. When she is rude to the kids, she stops their petty argument. When she impulsively reveals their hiding-place, she hurts the police and reporters who were waiting outside, but it's fine because they were working for CrockerCorp. Her flaws aren't actually flaws because they're not treated as such by the narrative. Vriska Serket can do no wrong.

Vriska Serket is a Mary Sue.

Hot take?
Okay, but like, when was she not a mary sue. Like realistically. She always kinda gave off that vibe, and honestly post-retcon pretty much confirmed that to me.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by pfeffer-29 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:30 pm

harmoniousCalamity wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:02 am
Okay, but like, when was she not a mary sue. Like realistically. She always kinda gave off that vibe, and honestly post-retcon pretty much confirmed that to me.
Uh...crap. You may be right. I think Vriska was at least less Sueish in Act 5, where her actions led to her demise and all the characters agreed she was pretty messed up. (Actually, if she'd just stayed dead, Vriska might've been an interesting sympathetic villain and a good character.) In Act 6 pre-retcon, Vriska seemed to be developing into a less horrible person thanks to her narrative irrelevance and a (kinda creepy!) relationship with Meenah. But then the retcon happened and post-retcon Vriska proceeded to have "character development" offscreen in a two-minute flash and yell at pre-retcon Vriska.

The most annoying part of this is that Vriska Prime's role in the finale and Epilogues and sequel could easily be filled by pre-retcon Vriska. It would probably be a lot more cathartic if the Vriska we saw grow into a slightly better person was the one who lived on the meteor, finally earned her narrative relevance, and opened the box.
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by harmoniousCalamity » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:49 pm

pfeffer-29 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:30 pm
harmoniousCalamity wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:02 am
Snip.
Uh...crap. You may be right. I think Vriska was at least less Sueish in Act 5, where her actions led to her demise and all the characters agreed she was pretty messed up. (Actually, if she'd just stayed dead, Vriska might've been an interesting sympathetic villain and a good character.) In Act 6 pre-retcon, Vriska seemed to be developing into a less horrible person thanks to her narrative irrelevance and a (kinda creepy!) relationship with Meenah. But then the retcon happened and post-retcon Vriska proceeded to have "character development" offscreen in a two-minute flash and yell at pre-retcon Vriska.

The most annoying part of this is that Vriska Prime's role in the finale and Epilogues and sequel could easily be filled by pre-retcon Vriska. It would probably be a lot more cathartic if the Vriska we saw grow into a slightly better person was the one who lived on the meteor, finally earned her narrative relevance, and opened the box.
I do think that pre-death, the way she seemed to mostly dodge or not have things like...truly effect her is what gave me that suspicion in the first place. Yes she lost her eye, and she lost her arm, and yes she did (rightfully) get beat and left to bleed to death, but then she GTed and pretty much all of that was instantly rectified(And then she got the bonus of GTing too?), and she never seemed to truly care about her aliments outside them being maybe an annoyance sometimes. All of that happened and as far as I recall it didn't have an impact on her such as Aradia dying, Tavros being disabled, and blinding terezi did. They all in some way or form, changed when those things happened to them, when stuff like that happened to Vriska, she didn't seem to change at all.

At least if she stayed dead, like you have mentioned she might've been left at a slightly mary sue-ish villain, who was trying to make a change in the afterlife for herself.

But honestly I'd argue that the stuff done by Vriska didn't need to be done by her at all. What happened to Terezi having other friends, what if she send John back to revive someone else who she missed/knew out of all of them needed a fair second chance. Pretty much all of the trolls had some knowledge of the box, and arguably could've found it instead. Like what if we saw Eridan come back, or Feferi? Or having trolls that did sort of come back, come back in a more perm. fashion like Nepeta, Tavros, Equius? Or had the former/current leader Karkat cement his role as being a leader?

Hell Terezi could've lead the last of the trolls and the humans herself! She seemed plenty capable of ordering people(John) around while on deaths doorstep, and he followed her rules! So, why Vriska in the first place?
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by PilotBlackSmith » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:16 pm

harmoniousCalamity wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:49 pm
Hell Terezi could've lead the last of the trolls and the humans herself! She seemed plenty capable of ordering people(John) around while on deaths doorstep, and he followed her rules! So, why Vriska in the first place?
because romance and Andrew wanted his waifu back :andrew:


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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by harmoniousCalamity » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:36 pm

PilotBlackSmith wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:16 pm
harmoniousCalamity wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:49 pm
Hell Terezi could've lead the last of the trolls and the humans herself! She seemed plenty capable of ordering people(John) around while on deaths doorstep, and he followed her rules! So, why Vriska in the first place?
because romance and Andrew wanted his waifu back :andrew:
It's not even good romance, its the abusive kind :what: :tense:
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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by misery » Wed Oct 07, 2020 2:11 pm

vriska should have stayed dead. Johns goal should have been to redeem literally every other troll except her. It makes zero fucking sense to go back and revive one of the two mass murderers aboard the meteor as opposed to the countless light side victims of those mass murderers.

Also the retcon powers were severely under utilized and act 6 should have been less than half the length it was but i digress

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Re: THE VRISCOURSE THREAD

Post by datedink » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:13 pm

Sokota wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:04 pm
Vriska did do a lot of things wrong, and I am in no way, shape or form condoning her actions, but it's important to consider the environment she grew up in as well! The big question is, does it justify her actions later in life?
good question, and it doesn't. although i understand she was abused and forced to kill and was in constant danger, she became the abuser after she was out of that situation. thats where she really went wrong

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